When Ken Kendrick, the owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks and probably the world’s finest sports card collection, wanted a book produced to highlight his treasure trove there was only one man to call. If you’re not familiar with the work of Tom Zappala, you’re in for a real treat. Tom is the author of five award-winning books on baseball cards and memorabilia such as An All-Star Star’s Cardboard Memories and Legendary Lumber: The Top 100 Player Bats In Baseball, both of which I heaped praise upon in two columns for Forbes.

 

In addition, he and his wife Ellen, are co-authors of Baseball & Bubble Gum: The 1952 Topps Collection, The Cracker Jack Collection:

Baseball’s Prized Players,  and The 100 Greatest Baseball Autographs.  (All are available on his website, Amazon, and the Baseball Hall of Fame’s book store.)  Meanwhile, Zappala and the super amiable Red Sox Hall of Famer Rico Petrocelli host a weekly baseball collectibles podcast featuring a rotating list of guest co-hosts and hobby experts from around the country who discuss the latest in the sports collectibles world.

You can meet the Zappalas and Petrocelli at this year’s National Sports Collectors Convention in Atlantic City where he will be launching his new book and doing a two-hour podcast onsite. 

I caught up with Zappala to explore his exciting Ken Kendrick project and seek this industry heavy hitter’s  investment advice.

David: What a collection!  Why did you select these 50 cards:

1909 T206 Honus Wagner PSA 8 

1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 10 

1916 M101-5/M101-4 #151 Babe Ruth PSA 8 (Sporting News)

1916 M101-5/M101-4 #151 Babe Ruth PSA 6 (Famous & Barr)

1909 T206 Eddie Plank PSA 8 

1933 Goudey Napoleon Lajoie PSA 9 

1911 T3 Turkey Red Ty Cobb PSA 8 

1933 Goudey #144 Babe Ruth PSA 9 

1933 Goudey #181 Babe Ruth PSA 9 

1951 Bowman Mickey Mantle PSA 10 

1915 Cracker Jack Joe Jackson PSA 9 

1934 Goudey #37 Lou Gehrig PSA 9 

1934 Goudey #61 Lou Gehrig PSA 9 

1948 Leaf Satchel Paige PSA 8 

1941 Play Ball Joe DiMaggio PSA 9 

1911 T205 Ty Cobb PSA 8 

1954 Wilson Franks Ted Williams PSA 7 

1955 Topps Roberto Clemente PSA 9 

1954 Topps Henry Aaron PSA 10 

1935 National Chicle #34 Bronko Nagurski PSA 9 

1948 Bowman George Mikan PSA 8 

1951 Bowman Willie Mays PSA 9 

1986 Fleer Michael Jordan PSA10 

1909-11 T206 Portrait Cy Young PSA 9

1909-11 T206 Bare Hand Cy Young PSA 9

1909-11 T206 Portrait Walter Johnson PSA 9

1909-11 T206 Bat Off Shoulder Ty Cobb PSA 8

1909-11 T206 Bat On Shoulder Ty Cobb PSA 8

1909-11 T206 Green Portrait Ty Cobb PSA 8

1909-11 T206 Red Portrait Ty Cobb PSA 8

1909-11 T206 “Magie Error” Sherry Magee PSA 8

1915 Cracker Jack #30 Ty Cobb PSA 9

1916 Famous & Barr Co. Jim Thorpe PSA 8

1927 E126 Babe Ruth PSA 8

1934 World Wide Gum Babe Ruth PSA 9

1938 Goudey #274 Joe DiMaggio PSA 9

1938 Goudey #250 Joe DiMaggio PSA 9

1939 Play Ball #92 Ted Williams PSA 9

1941 Play Ball Ted Williams PSA 9

1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson PSA 9

1949 Bowman Roy Campanella PSA 10

1949 Bowman Satchell Paige PSA 9

1952 Topps Willie Mays PSA 10

1953 Topps Willie Mays PSA 10

1954 Bowman Ted Williams PSA 9

1954 Topps Al Kaline PSA10

1955 Topps Sandy Koufax PSA 10

1957 Topps Brooks Robinson PSA 10

1959 Topps Bob Gibson PSA 10

1968 Topps Koosman/Ryan PSA 10

1979 Topps Ozzie Smith PSA 10

Tom:  That came from Ken. We thought that 50 would be an ideal number. But it was his choice. He is a big collector. He has a lot of really special complete sets, too.

David: While we’re at it, just curious why he selected the Ozzie as the most modern as opposed to, say, Ken Griffey, Jr.

Tom: I don’t have an absolute answer. I think Ken wanted the 50 cards to include pre-war right through the  present. He wanted to share the entire history with the collector. That was his choice for the most modern. 

David:  So there are three 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 10s in existence. Marshall Fogel, the owner of one, told me that he has turned down offers of $25 million for his. Do you know if Ken has received similar offers?

Tom: I am sure has had offers for that and other cards.The card came from the great collection of Tom Candiotti, the former major league knuckleballer who works in the Diamondbacks’ radio booth and was a real big collector. He bought his Mantle around mid-2004. A portion of his cards came from Candiotti. 

David: I understand that, growing up in the 1950s, Ken wasn’t even much of a Mantle fan.

Tom:  Ken was a Brooklyn Dodgers fan. He is very passionate about the history of the game Although his cards are ionic, he enjoys the story behind the players of the game. It’s like me being a Yankees fan coming from Boston. You’ve got to respect some of the greatest players.

David: What about the 1909 T206 Honus Wagner PSA 8 (deemed the “Gretzky Wagner”)? Hobby veterans consider that the top card in hobby even though after Ken bought it was later revealed that Bill Mastro, hobby big shot and criminal, trimmed it.

Tom: It is the most iconic card in the history of the hobby. The signature of the entire hobby. Hands down. There are the stories behind this Wagner and so there are so few to begin with. (About 75.)  That particular card has added mystique to the hobby because it has been owned by so many successful people ( like Gretzky). 

I don’t like to get involved in politics, just take a step back and enjoy everything.

David: How long did Ken take to amass this collection and when did he do it?

Tom: In the late ‘90s and early 2000s. He later based it on the first 20 cards in the book by Joe Orlando (former PSA president) in 2008 called Collecting Sports Legends: The Ultimate Hobby Guide. Ken collected a bunch of different sports by choice.  

David: Does he have a favorite card?

Tom: Honestly, He looks at all 50 cards like his children.

David: Do you? 

Tom: My favorite card in the collection would surprise you. It’s not the Mantle or a Ruth. I like the George Mikan rookie card. I think it’s a cool card, one of the two basketball cards (besides the Jordan PSA 10). I am an old NBA lover. We did a lot of research on Mikan. There’s a great backstory. They rewrote the basketball regulations because he was so dominant. I also like Bronko Nagurski because I never did a lot of research on him. The guy was a phenomenal athlete for his time (primarily the 1930s). He played three positions: He was a running back, a tackle, and an end. Plus he was a pro wrestler.

David: Are these two cards good buys?

Tom: Yes, these are good buys. Absolutely Nagurksi and Mikan. I would add Jim Thorpe as three other top other sports cards in our book, not counting the ’86 Jordan. Thorpe was another great athlete. Football doesn’t have the cachet of baseball and basketball, though I really like Jim Brown’s card because it’s iconic. Thorpe was a great baseball player. He was an Olympic gold medalist (for track) and a super star in all three sports. I find that fascinating. He lost his gold medals because he played professionally on the side, but they were later reinstated.

David: Ken’s instincts for which cards to collect are uncanny, given the current boom. He is the Warren Buffet of cards. I realize, though, as a very successful businessman he didn’t do it for the money.

Tom: I agree. Ken is his own man. His real love of the hobby supersedes everything else.

David: Ken’s collection spans the entire history of twentieth century baseball cards. Is that intentional?

Tom: He is a real history buff.  He wanted to cover the entire century because of his love of pre-war such as T206s and T205s. He’s really passionate about the entire century.

David: He has shown off parts of his collection at local museums and his ball park, which is a boon to the hobby.  What pleasure does he derive from being so generous?

Tom: That’s another example. He’s really enthusiastic about sharing his love. It has been on display at the Diamonbacks’ ballpark and at Cooperstown. It’s been a boon to the hobby because of all the press. 

David: Shifting focus from Ken Kendricks, I’d like to ask you some general investment questions. First, What’s the hottest material today?

Tom: Basketball. Modern and ultra modern. It’s red hot. Personally, I don’t collect these. But right now PSA is grading more basketball than anything else. A lot of it has to do with a new group of day traders flipping these cards of Moran and players like that. 

On the other side of the coin, I am finding it encouraging that it is also helping the vintage markets. I am not saying the modern collectors don’t love the hobby. It’s very important to them. They will buy these modern cards. They are using the vintage cards like we would use a blue chip stock like AT&T and IBM to offset the risk of  taking on the modern. The vintage is slow and steady. 

A nice portfolio means buying vintage like we talk about with Ken’s collection: the 33 Goudey Ruth, T206 Cobbs, Ted Williams rookie cards. The vintage cards from the ‘50s. Topps 1950s Mantles. Al Kaline. Roberto Clemente. Jackie Robinsons from the ‘40s and ‘50s. I find it fascinating. As I said, it’s just like a stock portfolio. You take a risk and you buy the anchor stocks.

David:  What are astute people collecting?

Tom: Game used tickets are red hot. Over the last six months, they have really exploded. Game used memorabilia like bats and game-worn baseball, football, and hockey jerseys. And signed baseballs. 

I’m personally switching gears to memorabilia. I like the whole concept of the players DNA being part of the object at the time. There’s nothing like holding a Cobb, Ruth, or Williams bat. 

You know that famous photo from 1939 of the first Hall of Fame Induction Group? (Honus Wagner, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Tris Speaker, Nap Lajoie, George Sisler, and Walter Johnson. Eddie Collins, Babe Ruth, Connie Mack, and Cy Young.)

I’m working on trying to accumulate signed balls of each one of these players. Plus Mathewson and Cobb. Mathewson had died and Cobb was late. I kind of liquidated my T206 collection. There are a handful of tough ones. Lajoie is tough. So is Grover Cleveland Alexander. It’s next to impossible to find a single signed Mathewson. Ruths and Cobbs are out there. I already have four: Connie Mack, Cy Young, Eddie Collins, and Walter Johnson. 

David: Very cool, Tom. So, which players cards, pre and post war, are the biggest right now in your estimation?

Tom: The big three are really strong: Cobb, Ruth, and Gehrig.

Some of the other Wagners besides the T206 like the E-92 1909 Dockman & Sons. The Sporting Life with the blue background. It has the same pose as the T206. (A PSA 6 sold for $25,000 in January.)

The ’51 Bowman Mantle is picking up steam. That is his true rookie. Anything Tom Brady rookie.  In terms of who’s hot and who’s not, the Joe Burrow rookie is hot.

David: What other post war cards?

Tom: The Koufax, Clemente, and Jackie Robinsins rookies. Those are iconic. The Roy Campanella rookie. (1949 Bowman).

David: Really? He never comes up. (Kendrick owns a PSA 10).

Tom:  Campy has always been in the shadow of Yogi Berra and Johnny Bench. Look at the tragedy (of him being paralyzed in 1957 from a car accident). A lot it starts coming together. 

Then there’s the Rose rookie. As time goes on, Rose is becoming more accepted. There’s talk about pushing him into the Hall of Fame. His rookie card is a pretty good investment. 

Mays’ ’51 bowman is white hot. And his ’54. All of his cards from the ‘50s are. His cards from the 60s are not as much. I hate to say it, but that has a lot to do with him nearing his end.

A lot of the Generation X (Americans born between 1965 and 1980) are morphing into the ‘70s. 

David: Which cards exactly from the 60’s and 70’s are catching fire the most?

Tom: George Brett and Robin Yount. Jim Rice.  Johnny Bench from that period continues to pick up. Carl Yastrzemski’s rookie year was 1960 but he played until 1983.

David: You mentioned Campy and Jackie. I’m always surprised that Duke Snider doesn’t get a lot of love. His cards don’t do so well; the reason, probably, was that he was the third best center fielder in New York, behind Mantle and Mays.

Tom: Yeah, Duke Snider doesn’t get a lot of love. Whitey Ford doesn’t, either.

David:  I’ve heard from a prominent Brooklyn Dodger dealer that Gil Hodges is in higher demand than Snider.

Tom:  Hodges may be another short spike from being elected into the Hall of Fame.  The jury is still out. 

David:  What’s moving markets?

Tom:  Definitely, manufactured rarities. One of one rookie patches. I’m not saying it in a derogatory way. It definitely has a bearing on the young, the Millennials (ages 26 to 41). Investing in manufactured rarity develops a real appreciation of the hobby. You do a lot of digging. It’s like buying a hot stock. What about this Apple stock?

How do you spot fraud?

There are a lot of professionals. We just spoke to Kevin Lenane, president of Collectors Universe (which owns PSA) on our show. They’re a company incorporating some tools to really detect that sort of thing with new technology called Genamint.

(According to PSA, “Genamint technology analyzes each trading card in real-time and is able to provide diagnostics, measurements, and detect alterations or other changes made to a card’s surface in an effort to assist human graders. It will also provide unique card identification — or ‘card fingerprinting’—by identifying the exact card in order to track provenance, resubmissions, condition changes and other attributes over time.”)

This will be a big plus and a big help to the market. That’s what it was all about. PSA is hellbent on trying to curb fraud.

David: What are three items you recommend?

Tom: From a speculative standpoint. Right now, it’s a really limited edition PSA 10 Joe Burrow rookie card. That’s not going to break the bank. 

As I said, the ’51 Bowman Mantle is really going to rise in a year or two. It’s his true rookie card. I just bought a PSA 3.

A decent quality Jackie Robinson rookie card is a good investment.

So on the ultra modern side Burrow and Ja Morant (Memphis Grizzlies point guard.)  But this is speculative. Look at what happened to Zion Williamson (New Orleans Pelicans power forward.) He dropped like a rock. 

I prefer slow and steady. Nothing is going to happen to Ty Cobb. He is already dead. Lou Gehrig is not going to eat way out of his league like Zion Williamson has.

David: What is the hobby’s future?

Tom: I’m very bullish. I think kids are really getting into it. They’re 10, 11, 12  years old. Wheatland, the auction house, has a busy store. They tell me that 12-year-olds come in to buy packs and open them right there on the spot. That’s a good sign.

David: Just like when we were kids in the 1960s and 1970s.’

Tom:  Exactly!

There’s one thing that needs to be done. Major League Baseball needs to work harder to make the game more interesting for kids. That’s part of why basketball is so hot. How can we attract kids? Look at the time slots for TV. Kids can’t watch a World Series game that starts at 8:00 on the East Coast. It’s the late start time. And the length of the games. Three hours and three and a half hours. Kids’ attention spans are too short for that.

Baseball should take a step back and figure out how to shorten games. A pitch clock would be a good idea.

In my last column, I interviewed Russ Havens, a longtime ticket collector and maven with the number one ticket website, TicketStubCollection.com.

 

Because the market is heating up so rapidly, I also reached out to a professional source who is a veteran ticket collector and expert. Simeon Lipman has been dealing in sports and pop culture memorabilia for more than two decades. He has curated events for Christie’s auction house, written extensively, and appears regularly on PBS’s top-rated Antiques Roadshow. He is a regular guest on the podcast Collectable Daily and its YouTube TV channel.

David: Tickets are sizzling. Mickey Mantle’s 1951 debut ticket recently fetched $141,000. Wayne Gretzky’s debut ticket commanded $102,000 (for a PSA 3 MK. The previous sale in April for a PSA 7 was $12,000). Michael Jordan’s NBA debut changed hands for $264,000. An autographed gem mint Tom Brady first-career touchdown ticket sold for $144,000. It was his Foxboro debut and not even his first game. 

Why have vintage and modern tickets skyrocketed recently?

Simeon: It’s partly a result of card fatigue. There has always been this interest in the earliest things of people. Eventually, a collector has all the rookie cards. Before the advent of the grading, there wasn’t much interest. A lot of collectors didn’t understand tickets. 

Once you give them a number grade, they become a commodity. And it’s authenticated. It suddenly changes the dynamics. People have had tickets forever. Now you are seeing the crossover of people who collect graded cards. These things are way rarer. This is a different type of ephemera actually created for the event.

David:  Speaking of rarity, full, unused tickets sell for several times more than stubs because of their rarity.

Simeon: I happen to love stubs more than full tickets. To me the stub, jammed in your pocket from that game in 1951 is kind of soaked in the history. But I can see why the full tickets have taken off because of the grading.

David: So you believe the boom is for real and just the start?

Simeon:  I do believe we’re in a boom.  It’s a matter of supply and demand. People are discovering this new collectible and the new way it is presented. The difference between tickets and vintage cards is that there is a truly a finite supply of tickets especially when we are dealing with debuts. With most debuts fans didn’t know the person that well. People didn’t hold on to the ticket because of that. 

Even with more contemporary instances like LeBron James— nobody was more anticipated. Yet his debut ticket is difficult to find. (PSA has graded 36 full and three stubs. A full sells for about $20,000 on eBay). It was not something that came to collectors’ minds.

David: I see World Series tickets most often on eBay, in auctions, and at shows by far. At a show I saw a dealer having trouble selling a 1955 game 7 Yankees ticket stub for $495, the clincher for the Brooklyn Dodgers only championship. He had it for more than a year.

Simeon: People kept World Series tickets. That’s why they are not as rare. They are common to really common, even Larsen’s perfect game ticket. (242 stubs and 18 full graded by PSA.)

Particularly compared Chamberlain’s 100 point game (PSA has graded 13). You would think people would hang on to that type of thing at that game. It kind of got swept away and thrown out. That happened to lots of tickets. 

It really shocked me to see Maris’1961 61st home run ticket stub on eBay. I said, “this was my ticket!” The price, $2100, was cheap and it was up there for a long time. It was an October game with a small attendance (23,154). I regret not buying it.

David: I like the oddball regular season tickets.Two years ago, I paid $400 in an auction for a ticket from the 1976 Dodgers game in which outfielder Rick Monday saved an American from being burned on the grass by two fans. A month later, another auction house sold the ticket from the adjoining seat for $1,200. I’ll hang on to mine.

Simeon: That’s a great ticket.  One of the coolest of late is Wrestlemaina 3 at the Pontiac Silverdome in 1987. That’s an unbelievable  ticket because there are so many people of a generation who embraced the fight in which Hulk Hogan beat Andre the Giant. The ticket has skyrocketed to five figures.

Darren Rovell (a prominent industry reporter) is a huge ticket guy.  He believes in the Rock’s (Dwayne Johnson) 1996 debut wrestling ticket. This guy’s trajectory is one we haven’t seen in a long while. He wants to go into politics. That could be a $100,000 ticket. You want to focus, maybe even more on contemporary figures.

I really want to find Keith Hernandez’s last game ticket. Most people don’t remember he finished with the Cleveland Indians. Who would have ever kept this stub? It would probably go for $10 to $15. You can delve so deep into tickets!

The ticket from the 1996 Mike Tyson vs. Bruce Sheldon bout is rare. It wasn’t a huge fight. But if you do enough research you’ll find that Tupac Shakur (considered one of the most influential rappers of all time) attended the fight and was killed after he left.  When they encapsulate the slabs they say that on the label. (In 2017, Goldin Auctions sold a Tupac ticket for $24,000.) Mine cost me less than $100.

I got the ticket from the opening of Shea Stadium via a trade. (It’s worth about $500-$750 in good condition).

Another one is the 1977 New York City Blackout ticket at Shea Stadium on July 13, 1977 when the game was stopped in the sixth inning.  This is sort of controversial. People looted electronics stores and got turntables and other things they couldn’t afford. This led to the start of Hip hop. 

David: These never occurred to me. Are there other lesser known sports tickets with growth potential? 

Simeon: Yes. There are others. When Alan Iverson crossed over Michael Jordan. (On March 12, 1997, NBA rookie Allen Iverson froze Michael Jordan in his tracks with one of the most memorable crossovers of all time.) He left Jordan in the dust. If you didn’t know that moment, look for it. You have to do the research. There are things out there.

One of the coolest tickets out there belongs to Darren Rovell: the first game Michael Jordan wore Air Jordan sneakers. (MJ had played in 10 regular-season games for Chicago before this milestone on November 17, 1984).  In the grand scheme of things that changed everything. That ticket would never be publicized. You wouldn’t have looked for it.

This is an emerging market. There are wonderful concert tickets of iconic moments of the Beatles, and Rolling Stones. That’s going to be next. 

I personally have been collecting Broadway debut tickets. There was an opening night Marlon Brando was on the stage in 1944 when he was 19 in his professional debut in I Remember Mama. Lo and behold I found one. I also have a ticket from Dustin Hoffman’s first importance on a Broadway stage in 1961.

David: I have spoken to two ticket experts/purists who don’t believe tickets should be autographed. On the podcast Collectable Daily, you mentioned an Antiques Roadshow incident in which the owner of a Wilt Chamberlain 100 point game (value: $85,000) was at an autograph show, intending Chamberlain to sign with a ballpoint pen. Chamberlain was tired at the end of the show and used a Sharpie, thus obliterating the tiny stub.

Simeon:  If a ticket was signed at the time, I’m all for it. If it’s signed way later, no. My whole thing is aesthetics. These tickets are quite small. These tickets aren’t much bigger. It depends on what you want. If you have it signed, use a ballpoint pen, not a Sharpie. Aesthetically, I would leave well enough alone.

David:  Full.unused tickets command a premium several times in value because they a fraction of them have survived compared to stubs. Do you buy this concept?

Simeon: No. It’s worth it if someone is going to pay that because you are seeing these as the highest graded.  I understand that a lot of people care about the condition. People are looking for PSA 10s. It leads away from the opportunity to love a ticket for what it is. This is a piece of history. A full ticket was never used and never at the game. It’s really what you personally care about.

David: I’ve watched two extremely rare last game Jackie Robinson and Mickey Mantle tickets languish for some time for $10,000 on eBay with Best Offer. In neither case, did Robinson or Mantle announce his retirement, so there would have been less reason to save the ticket. (There are the same number of tickets for both events, 15).  

Simeon:  It depends on acquiring the rookie debut or a milestone, like a 500th homer or a 300th victory.  Once people scratch that one itch, they are going to want the other one. In many cases, those last games are even rarer.  A lot of these guys (like Robinson and Mantle) went out with a whisper. Final game tickets are extremely undervalued, probably not for long.

David:  I am wondering about the Ticketmaster tickets versus the original season ticket.

Simeon:  Those lines are blurring. It’s just the nature of it. You take what you can get. 

David: You mention milestones. Nothing seems much bigger than Mantle’s iconic 500th home run. It’s an iconic image. But there are two on eBay (for about $4,000) and no takers.

Simeon: That price is about right. Mantle is the gold standard. But 500 homers has lost a little bit of its luster. It’s just the nature. So many other guys, and not necessarily Hall of Famers, have reached that milestone.

David: On Memorabilia Watch (Collectable’s TV program on YouTube), you surprised me and the host, Nick Capero, by putting tickets on a par with game used jerseys. 

You said  that, “Tickets are things you can hold in your hand, put in your pocket. or could put it in a safety deposit box. They’re kind of commodities once they have been slabbed, for sure. Cards weren’t at Wayne Gretsky’s debut but this ticket was. You’re not going to get the jersey for that game. I mean it’s more realistic you’re to get one of those though it’s impossible to know where they are going to come from. Nobody is sitting on a pile of Gretzky tickets. I think collectors and investors can appreciate that.”

David: Care to elaborate?

Simeon: Look at the Brady debut ticket. That could be a few hundred thousand. It’s not like somebody is going to find a case of these. Especially guys who were unheralded like Brady. Even afterwards, that kind ticket stub was a fluke. Then he became Tom Brady.

The Playoff Contenders rookie card was numbered. Even though nobody knew him, nobody tossed it because it was a numbered card. With a ticket stub, who cared?

David: You’re very bullish on tickets.

Simeon:  So much money is being poured into the industry it’s got to go somewhere.  Obviously, the market is on fire. It will continue to grow. You’re not going to find more tickets. There is what there is.  I’ve been buying tickets for a long time. They are tangible pieces of history and they were at the event, which adds a whole layer to the appeal.

For the big events, they might be in a museum in the Hall of Fame already. Or in somebody’s collection. Cards will always do well.  But people are finding out there are a lot more out there than they realize. With all the grading and publicity around cards, tickets are very rare in comparison.

David: Do you have simple advice for collectors getting started with tickets?Simeon: If there is a person you like, do the research. Figure it out. Save searches. If things pop up, they will send them to you.

I love vintage ticket stubs.  There may be no other type of vintage sports memorabilia that links you to the past as much as a ticket stub does. Old tickets excite all my senses at Shea Stadium where my dad and I once rooted for the Mets.  I can smell the vendors’ steamed hot dogs they served in paper napkins and the stale beer that came in paper cups. And that pungent, ubiquitous odor of cigar smoke. I can visualize the emerald field beneath the deep blue sky. And I can hear the crowd thunder when Tom Seaver fanned a batter.

 

Fortunately I saved a few of these precious objects.  I felt as though I owned my Field Level box seat ($4.00 in 1972!),)! even if only for a few hours during a game. No two tickets are alike because each has its own section and seat number. Mine from the early 1970s show a disconsolate Mr. Met holding an umbrella up during a shower as a reminder to fans to keep their stubs as “RAIN CHECKS.”  (Could the historically hapless Mets have chosen a sorrier symbol?)

Games watched on TV come back to life in full color. On Mother’s Day, 1972, I remember jumping up and down, yelling with joy, in the family room after Willie Mays hit a home run in his first game as a Met. My grandmother came from the kitchen to see what all the commotion was about.  I now treasure the stub from that game, which I bought along with a New York Daily News from the next day featuring full-page photos of Willie swatting his blow for $100 a decade ago.

Many are creased or have mustard stains. I call that game used, like a cracked baseball bat loaded with pine tar. Mostly, tickets were discarded, except those from World Series and All Star games which have mostly, but not always, remained static in value because they are so plentiful..

I have taken a special interest in a stub from Mickey Mantle’s first Yankee game in 1951.  About 20 years ago, I bought one for $15 at a Salvation Army rummage sale in Brooklyn. I then flipped it for $2,100 in a Lelands auction, a pretty darn good return on my investment. The ticket rose to $7,500 and remained there for years.

Then shock!  Classic Auctions just fetched $141,000 for one shortly after Lelands sold an example for $101,000. It’s not just Mantle, either.

Here are some other mind-blowing auction results.

• In November Mile High Card Co. sold the ticket from Wayne Gretzky’s debut for $102,000, one of eight PSA has graded.
• In May, Heritage sold Michael Jordan’s first NBA preseason game ticket stub from 1984 for $35,000.
• In December, Huggins & Scott sold a ticket stub from Michael Jordan’s 1984 debut NBA game $264,000 Thursday, the highest price for a sporting event ticket sold at auction.
• Last May, Wilt Chamberlain’s 100 point game 1962 changed hands for $44,400 in a Heritage auction. (PSA has graded 13.)
• In November, Heritage sold an autographed gem mint Tom Brady first-career touchdown ticket sell for $144,000. It was his Foxboro debut and not even his first game.
• I recently spoke to Tony Giese, Heritage consignment director, about the blazing hot ticket market for Collectable.
• But I wanted to dig deeper to understand the meteoric rise of this memorabilia niche that is virtually unparalleled in the history of the industry. To my amazement, there is very little written on ticket stubs, though they have been collected for years. Even the encyclopedic PSA lacks a web page giving context, despite giving invaluable population reports of graded examples showing just how scarce they are.  Rich Mueller, the editor of the indispensable Sports Collectors Daily, wrote an excellent story in 2019 on collecting popular World Series ticket stubs from the last 50 years that serves as an excellent primer.

True to form, he followed up on January 15 with a take on the current market. “Even as they’ve become a virtually extinct method of entry into stadiums around the world, the market for collectible vintage sports tickets has never been hotter,” Mueller wrote. “Trading cards picked up steam just prior to the start of the current decade and then exploded during the pandemic. Now, it’s the turn(stile) of the once lowly ducat that’s driving hobbyists to seek out sports ticket stubs for sale on eBay, via major auctions and elsewhere.”

Fortunately, I also found Russ Havens, the creator and manager of TicketStubCollection.com.  

“TicketStubCollection.com dedicates itself to the history of ticket stub artwork and ticket stub collecting,” Havens writes. “The site hosts over 25,000 ticket stub images from the sports and entertainment worlds, and each ticket is tagged enabling visitors to search by year, venue, artist, city, league or team. Upload a jpeg of your favorite ticket stubs and I’ll add it to the collection!”

Havens has posted a riveting presentation chronicling the history of ticket stubs, admissions passes and accompanying artwork dating back to ancient Greece.  He published“The 2016 Illustrated Ticket Stub Price Guide,” a 136-page book that was way ahead of its time.

David: What inspired you to start collecting tickets?

Russ: For over 40 years I’ve thought ticket stubs are the perfect collectible. They boast a timestamp, refer to a potentially historic event, and unlike sports cards, population numbers are maxed out by venue capacity. 

I grew up 35 miles away from Dodger Stadium before the freeway was completed. I’d go four or five times a year. There was the long school bus ride on Little League Night. Or I used to have to go to a local department store to order Dodger tickets through Mutual of Omaha. You would place your order with pencil and paper months ahead of the game, from there they sat  pinned to my bulletin board acting as a playbill (handbill?) of sorts. As much as they serve as a reminder of history, it was the anticipation of the event. They acted like handbills for me.  Later I started realizing I was incredibly nostalgic about being a kid. And you have to realize that the Dodgers’ home games weren’t televised, so being in person was so special.

Tickets are vastly undiscovered as a collectible. They have yet to really catch on.  The scarcity issue is what’s going to drive them.  No one throws them away. Everybody keeps everything now.  You can buy some recent World Series tickets for five bucks.  You can buy a nice Kirk Gibson 1988 World Series home run ticket for less than $875. Then barcoding beget digital tickets, which beget digital, which beget no ticketing at all.  Today it’s all electronic or print at home.

David: Do the big sales surprise you? Here are some explanations for their appeal:  PSA grades them and they’re difficult to grade.  They transcend generations. Again, there’s not a huge population. And they don’t print tickets anymore. 

Russ:  This is crazy big-boy stuff. Covid kicked off a lot of collections. People started getting obsessed again. We were home a lot going through closets and keeping track of what’s posted on eBay. Ticket listings went from 70,000 to 120,00 to 130,000 at a time.  The overall awareness did a lot.

David: Russ, you single out a few Holy Grails. Baseball ticket stubs from Don Larsen’s perfect game in the 1956 World Series, Babe Ruth’s called shot from the 1932 World Series, and ticket stubs from the 1919 Black Sox scandal arguably make up the top three ticket stubs from baseball. What are other suggestions?

Russ: Super Bowl 1, the gold variation. (In 2019, Heritage sold a full PSA NM-MT 8 for $66,000. PSA has graded 35). The blue variation is less desirable.

Giannis Antetokounmpo.  His debut was October 13, 2013, when he was 18. (eBay has a full PSA 5 for $7,950. PSA has graded 57). 

Tom Brady’s NFL debut. I would rather have a season ticket than the Ticketmaster version. I love the graphic design. The commercial art. They’re full color and they’re glossy. ($101,000 through Collectable IPO. Population estimated to be 30.)

The colorful 1974 Ali vs. Foreman Rumble in the Jungle Full is tough. (A full one in poor condition sold for $2,700 in Huggins and Scott in 2018. PSA population: 8). 

The Lou Gehrig Memorial 1941 ticket featuring his photo. (On eBay for $6,999, Make Offer. PSA has graded 127).

Babe Ruth’s 1943 WW2 War Bond Game ticket when he his last home run, against Wallter Johnson. (A PSA 2 is on eBay for $2,995. PSA population: 8).

Hank Aaron passed Babe Ruth with home run 715. I remember watching the game when I was 11 and hearing Vince Scully. I was 11. He was getting harassed. It was one of the most moving moments of my childhood. (Stubs go for $2,000 on eBay. Despite a sellout, there are only 110 stubs and 35 full tickets graded by PSA).

Wayne Gretzky’s 1994 802nd goal passing Gordie Howe as the all-time leader has become a sought-after ticket. (There are 31 stubs and seven full graded by PSA). My friend had season tickets, but didn’t make it to the game. Everyone went to the game, so a stub is $90-$100. But a full is $8,000, assuming the edges are clean.

David: That’s an interesting case of making a mint from missing history!  Speaking of Gretzky, you have a good story about his 1979 debut ticket as a symbol of the sizzling market. 

Russ: I believe this ticket stub transcends condition and style. Obviously one wants a Season Ticket style stub graded an 8, but most would kill for a Ticketmaster style today. (The $101,000 ticket stub at Mile High was a season version graded a PSA 3 with a mark.)

Yes, there’s an amazing story. Richard Hill was a huge collector and hockey fan as a kid growing up in Brantford Ontario.  His grandfather, grandmother and his grand uncle attended Gretzky’s debut game and kept the tickets individually. One was doused in a spilled tea incident. The other, the grandmother’s, was kept in a pencil cup on her desk. Over the years, Richard asked her to better preserve the ticket but she refused. For whatever reason, she wanted that ticket in her pencil cup. I believe she passed on before the grandfather, and the grandfather gifted it to Richard. The third ticket stub? Just plain missing. It’s been years and no one knows where it went. 

A week before the Mile High sale on November 11 he told me he was thinking of asking $2,500 but got an offer of $4,000— still a far cry from the $11,400 in December 2020, I told him. He put it on a Canadian classified sale website called Kijiji with Best Offer. On November 9, the two  highest offers for the Gretzky debut ticket were $14,000 and $15,000 as Mile High’s ticket soared.

“My phone is blowing up, as are my emails and text messages,” Hill wrote Havens. On November 10, the day before Mile High closed, the highest offer was $22,000 (almost a fifth of Mile High’s hammer price) but Hill had a huge lot of significant ticket hockey stubs from the era and was working with auction houses to sell them as a lot. Just an amazing story!

David: Wow! No seller’s regret here, as is so often the case. I’m curious about ticket stubs and full tickets with holes punched.

Russ:  Sometimes those were comp tickets or done instead of ripping a stub, so the ticket is full. It is not universal. There are so many different situations. It varied from venue to venue.

David: Are counterfeits an issue as they are in the rest of the industry.

Russ:  No., they are not that common.

David: Vintage full tickets command a premium, as much as twice or three times stubs because the population is a fraction of the stubs.

Russ: Overall, of course, you want the full one. But since 1986 teams slowly began adding barcodes and within two decades the ticket itself became less meaningful. Why? Because fans and collectors could use digital tickets for entry yet have a perfect full “unused” ticket at home. So having a ticket was no different than having a stub.At least there were printed tickets available. Fast forward 20 years and very few paper tickets are being issued. Some teams have emergency stock for generic tickets, but they’re not used ubiquitously as they once were.

David: I see a lot of full “proof” tickets without seat numbers for sale.

Russ: Proofs are acceptable to a small number of collectors. They pop up often enough on eBay. (For example, a proof Babe Ruth War Bond game ticket recently sold for $150 on eBay, compared to $2,999 for the real deal.)

David: I’ve watched two extremely rare last game Jackie Robinson and Mickey Mantle tickets languish for some time for $10,000 on eBay.

Russ:  Final appearance games are indeed collectable but debuts, 1st goal/home run etc and even numbered milestones are more desirable in my experience.

David: I’ve seen some of the six figure tickets in auctions autographed by the likes of Tom Brady. Should ticket collectors try to do that if it’s possible? Two other ticket experts I spoke to say no.

Russ:  I am a straight purist. I don’t believe in anything other than tickets. Autographs have no interest to me because they are ugly. An autograph didn’t matter to getting into the game. That’s all I care about. A Brady NFL debut ticket (from facing the Lions on September 23, 2000, $100,000 unsigned) is so unique who wouldn’t want that?  I think handwriting actually detracts from the value because it makes the ticket less attractive. It wasn’t designed to have an autograph. Some graphic designer spaced it just right. I’m sure he wasn’t keen to have an autograph. I’m also sure those guys were pissed when they added bar codes.  

David: So, what general advice can you give novice ticket collectors?

Russ: Do your meticulous research. It doesn’t take a creative thinker to figure out milestones like 500 homers or 3,0000 hits. Years ago, I put a Willie Mays 3,000th hit ticket on eBay for $14.50. Somebody wrote,“do you realize what you just did?” It was flipped for $571 on eBay. (In 2019, Mile High sold one for $1,000. Amazingly, PSA has only graded eight.) I’m really glad that I had another one.

If you want to know the pulse of the sports collectibles industry, you ought to go to shows where the action is live and some of the biggest deals go down. Collectors and dealers trade Intelligence and inside gossip. There is something for everyone— whether they be Millennials,  Baby Boomers, or just plain big spenders. 

Steve Gadzilia has been attending shows for 30 years as a collector and the last 12 as a dealer. He and his partners, Jon Celona, and Justin Thyme run Champion Sports Cards and Collectibles out of Boston. They set up at 15-20 shows per year, averaging one or two per month; usually near the entrance where they get first dibs at sellers carrying cardboard boxes and plastic bags.  Besides the National, they do two Shriners shows in Boston, four shows in White Plains, NY, two at Hofstra University, and one in Nashville— plus a few local shows.

Their inventory is broad, but their true speciality is post-war stars and Hall of Famers in high grade. I caught up with Steve Gadzilia a day after the recent Shriner’s show in Boston

David: What are your hottest cards these days?

Steve: Your big four: Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Clemente. and I would certainly say Koufax. 

For non-baseball, I’m talking rookies. In basketball:  Russell, Chamberlain, Alcindor, Bird, Magic,  In the modern stuff, it’s Jordan. Kobie and  LeBron. For football it’s Starr, Unitas, Namath,  Bradshaw. Our later cards doing well are  Montana. Rice, and Tom Brady. 

The Brady Playoff  Contender is off the charts. (Earlier this year, a BGS 9 sold for $3.1 million.) Less expensive options are  the 2000 Tom Brady Ultimate Victory Rookie Parallel Gold (PSA 10 for sale on eBay for $125,000) and 2000 Bowman Chrome Refractor Tom Brady rookie. (A PSA 9 is on eBay for $300,000.) We sell a good many PSA 8s, which go for about $3,500.

David: I have heard that Mays, Aaron, and Clemente have done well over the past couple of years.

Steve:  Yes, that’s true. They definitely have been picking up. Basically, the early Mays and Aaron cards have.  People realize just how undervalued they have been. Clemente had a very nice run, but has leveled off. You should focus mainly on their early years.  In later years, like the 1960s, buy the highest grades like 9s. We sold a 1969 PSA 9 Aaron for $5,000. 

David: What about interest in “lesser” Hall of Famers? Who’s moving?

Steve: Lou Brock, Bob Gibson, and to a lesser degree, Brooks Robinson. I would also add to this second tier Harmon Killebrew, Bob Feller, Warren Spahn, Stan Musial, and Jim Bunning.

David: And, then there is, of course, the king of post-war: Mickey Mantle.

Steve: Mantle is popular pretty much all of his years. His early years are so sought after and are, obviously, very expensive. So a lot of people are going to the years from 1960 to 1969 in high grades.

David: I am always waiting for his beautiful Bowman cards to soar. But even his 1951 rookie is relatively low compared to his 1952 Topps. I have always wondered why.

Steve: Well, Bowman has crept up. But Topps is more popular because it has been around longer  and, thus, has better brand recognition. 

David: What are astute people collecting these days?

Steve:  There are two segments of the market, modern and vintage. From what I’ve seen, the modern collectors are speculating a lot on Patrick Mahomes, Zion Williams, Jay Morant, and Mike Troutt. People like those modern cards.

For vintage collectors, it’s mainly the Hall of Famers we talked about. Oh, I want to also add Pete Rose, who is very popular with collectors. (Rose is also a gracious and an entertaining autograph guest.) He’s the all-time hit king and a lot of people think he should be in the Hall of Fame, eventually. (The last PSA 10 sold for $717,000 in 2016. (PSA population: 1).

David: I’ve noticed at the shows we’ve attended together that you do your share of game-used memorabilia. What sort is hot right now?

Steve:  Game-used equipment. Jerseys are probably the best. But some people like football helmets. Others like sneakers. Michael Jordan, of course. A few years ago, I bought a Mike Trout game used bat from his rookie season which came from the Trout family in NJ for $2,500 and sold it for $3,500. I regret selling it. (Signed Trout rookie bats now sell for over $20,000.)

David: What’s some of your prized memorabilia you’ve dealt?

Steve:  I sold a Koufax 1965 home jersey for $20,000-$25,000. Other game jerseys I have had include Larry Bird, Pedro Martinez, George Brett, and Julius Irving.  Before big buys, I often send pictures to authenticators to get a read. I just consigned a Joe DiMaggio professional model bat to Heritage.  John Taube (the leading bat authenticator featured in The Short Print) determined it wasn’t Joe D’s bat, but used by some unknown Yankee in the 1950s. It’s worth about  $1,000.

David: I have been making the case for game-used caps as an affordable alternative to jerseys.

Steve: I sold a Thurman Munson cap for $3,000.  (In early 2021, SCP Auctions sold a Munson jersey for $138,000.)

David: What’s moving markets?

Steve: Still the pandemic. There’s a lot of disposable income around from not going out for entertainment, going out to eat, or going to a game. We in the industry tend to do better when the stock market does better. Plus money being made from crypto currency.

David: What makes something rare and collectible?

Steve: People go by the pop reports for the three main grading companies. There’s also a function of supply and demand of the time. If there is only one Rose rookie in a nine there’s going to be a bidding war. With things like memorabilia, the general consensus is that players were issued only two of three jerseys per season. That’s very few.

David: What do you look for? 

Steve: When we buy something, we’re always looking for Hall of Famers in high grade and high value. We’re looking for, where can we sell it? and what do we think we can sell it for?  Essentially if we feel the price to buy is discounted enough to a number where we can make money.

For the more astute collector, centering and color are key. As a general rule, we try for centered 60/40 or better. We turn down a lot of stuff because it’s not centered. We might buy one or two items but pass on five, usually because of the centering. Raw or graded.

David: For this column, I ask experts how to spot fraud. You mentioned that you reach out to experts with memorabilia. In your case, I also saw you in action. A collector was showing off a Michael Jordan Fleer rookie graded 9 at the White Plains show he bought off eBay. Every dealer and auction house heavyweight said it was good, but you and your partner Jon Celona. The collector sent it back to PSA who told him the slab and card were fakes. The seller did not realize it and the collector was able to settle with him.

Steve: We have had a lot of experience with the Jordan rookie. There are two things I look at in particular. One is the label in the case. On fraudulent examples, the label is printed on a jet ink printer or laser printer. So you can see the difference between the grading company labels. On the Jordan, there’s a  little yellow parts underneath the Fleer logo arrow. On the fakes you can distinguish between the fakes and the real ones, The fakes are perfectly outlined. It’s hard to describe, but with the real ones there is a subtle difference.

We also see the 1990 George Bush Topps cards not in holders. (Only 100 were printed, especially for the president.)  You look for the heavier cardboard stock and glossy coating. 

To spot fraud, depending on the year, but particularly pre-war. We smell the cards.

David: Stop there. I have seen you and Jon smell cards and it looks a little crazy.

Steve: If the old raw cards are real, they smell musty. We had a guy come up to us recently with some tobacco stuff. Honus Wagner. Smokey Joe Wood. Cobb with the Hindu back. Lots of Hall of Famers. They looked real. Not in great shape.  Ones to threes. But when you smelled them, you knew these had been sitting around a long time!

David: What investments do you recommend?

Steve:  Ruth 1933 Goudeys and the Ruth 1933 Sport King is a popular card right now. I would stay away from strip cards. 

As alternative investments, pre-war is the best.  Go for the first six Hall of Famers (Ty Cobb, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner , and Lou Gehrig.) And Shoeless Joe Jackson. Tobacco, Cracker Jack, and candy cards. 

David:  I find it interesting that you are so bullish on pre-war when you make your money primarily from post-war.

Steve:  Yes, as an investment, I would focus on pre-war. It’s getting scarcer and harder to come by. The 30,35-year-olds and younger still like the modern stuff. That is their niche because that is what they are familiar with. But they are also becoming fascinated with pre-war.

Steve: The other thing I am seeing at shows is 1980-1985 in high grade. 9s and 10s. 

David: Really, the junk wax? I guess a rising tide lifts all boats.

Steve:  People are definitely into it. Ripken, Henderson, Mattingly, Sandberg, Gwynn, and Puckett. Bonds and Clemens to a lesser degree. Again, in the highest grades.

David: What about the hustling at the big shows that attracts the millennials, almost like gambling?

Steve: We saw a guy at the National who came with two or three grand. He kept going from booth to booth, flipping and flipping. He walked out of the show with $9,000. To make a sale to a dealer, you need an outgoing personality and to accept rejection.

David: What’s the future look like?

Steve: I think people will always collect. That is not the issue. The question is what they will collect. Pokeman and Magic cards have had a good run. Will people who grew up in the ‘80s and ‘90s be collecting cards from their youth?

I think modern and vintage niches are established. Each is its own niche.

Personally, I believe Mahomes could break his leg tomorrow and never play again. Whereas Mickey Mantle and Roberto Clemente’s careers are over. There are still fresh finds. But there aren’t that many more in attics and in basements. The material is finite.

We’re seeing people at the age when they get an inheritance so they are effectively in the card industry for nothing. Baby boomers are giving money to their kids or grandkids. But there will always be a market correction because, as I’ve said, the collectibles industry is definitely tied to the economy.

My number one rule is you  gotta do your research. A business professor asked me what the biggest barrier to entry in this industry is. What I told him was knowledge. You learn something new every day.

Since founding Mile High Card Company in 1996, the 53-year-old Brian Drent has been a leader of the high-grade sports card market, buying and selling many of the rarest and most prized sports cards and memorabilia. Some of his most spectacular finds, such as a 1915 Cracker Jack baseball card advertising poster found in a Wisconsin barn and a near complete box of 1948 Bowman unopened wax packs, have made national news. At the National Sports Collectors Convention in 2019 he created a sensation when he sold a collection of boldly signed Goudey Babe Ruths that sold in minutes.

David: Tell us about your long history in the hobby.

Brian: I grew up in Michigan where I started setting up at local shows in 1983 when I was 15. By 17, some friends and I drove to the East Coast National at the old White Plains County Center in New York to set up at the show and sell cards.  I continued when I was 18,19, and 20. We were down in the basement in the corner. We sure weren’t dealing with the kinds of money kids are dealing with today.

I will never forget it. We were eating at an Italian restaurant in New York City and John Gotti and Sammy the Bull walked in. It was unreal.  In 1986 Gotti was on the cover of Time.

David:  Wow! You have certainly come a long way since basement shows at a county center.  In your current auction running from October 25 to November 11, your first lot is marquis piece: a 1916 M101-4 Sporting News #151 Babe Ruth Blank Back PSA 7 NM. Well-respected grader Mike Baker has given it  “gold diamond” status that indicates it’s of the highest quality of known examples in the marketplace for the grade. Your pre-sale estimate is $3.5-$3.6 million. 

Brian: Yes, we’re very excited. If you want to break it down to its nth degree, the all-time clubhouse leaders would be Ruth and Mantle– far away. It’s the rookie card of the greatest player in the history of the game and the greatest name. PSA has graded three eights four sevens. One this high hasn’t come up in years. 

And it’s not just a seven. The card is notoriously off-centered and this is fairly well centered. I’d say its near mint to mint and could easily pass off as an eight. It’s normally found with print lines in the background of the image. There are one, two, or three print lines. There are none here. This is at the top of the sevens. It’s nicer than one or the two or three eights. 

Now if you look up population reports, the card is special. PSA has graded 64 with any type of the backs. That means Sporting News, Standard Biscuits, and Gimbels. On the other hand, they have graded 33 Honus Wagners. I didn’t think it would be that close: 64 versus 33. That also shows Ruth is a great rarity.

David: How did  you arrive at the estimate? Is it high?

Brian: I don’t think it’s aggressive. In July, Memory Lane sold a PSA 6 for $1.5 million. $3.5 million doesn’t seem that far fetched. Last summer Robert Edward Auction sold an SGC 3 Wagner for $6.6 million.

For all cards, Ruth is easily the preeminent player on a rookie card. Further looking at the table, you can make a case that of all of the modern cards, you would rather have a Babe Ruth PSA 7. I can’t tell you one way or the other how it will turn out, but value aside, I’d rather have this Ruth rookie card over several of the cards on that list.

David: I’m glad you brought up modern. Besides a ton of great vintage you have two of the most significant modern cards: a 1993 SP Foil #279 Derek Jeter PSA 10 GEM MINT and a 2017 National Treasures Holo Silver #161 Patrick Mahomes II Rookie Jersey Patch Auto (RPA) 20/25 BGS 9 MINT AUTO 10. 

Brian: We have a lot of modern stuff which isn’t the total norm for us. Everyone else is getting into it. Whether we sell a $40,000 LeBron it’s the same as selling as a Babe Ruth for that amount. It’s not as enjoyable to me, but it is profitable. Our customer base is looking for that material; a portion at least. We’re here to satisfy the masses.

David: What are astute people collecting these days?

Astute high net worth types are collecting cards just like these extraordinary high end examples that are prized pieces that cannot be found. Cards that gravitate to the top. 

Our hobby and business has become one of showmanship. At cocktail parties a guy is boasting that he just bought a Sandy Koufax game used jersey or game used Ruth bat. Maybe an 8.5 Clemente. Another guy at the party is driving home discussing with his wife the $750,000 cost: “Wait, I have more money than that!”

The average collector can’t get his hands on a Wagner or a Ruth rookie. These items are going into strong hands. The only way to pry it loose is to pay even more money.

David: What’s moving markets?

Brian: This is more fun than crypto or NFTs because sports is what our whole country revolves around.

David: What makes something rare and collectible?

Brian: Desirability. Attainability. If you have had something that is absurdly desirable, you know it’s going to be valuable. Something that is good becomes great.

David: What do you look for? 

Brian: That’s what we are looking for. And condition, obviously. It’s always condition. High grade defines availability.

David: Is fraud increasing in this booming market?

I haven’t seen any more. I haven’t seen any less. When items become incredibly valuable there is always going to be fraud. Take a Louis Vuitton bag. A knock off bag goes for a lot less. The same with Hermes purses and Rolex watches. Or autographs. There is always going to be some form of fraud. Someone is always going to make something from nothing.

David: What sort of memorabilia is hot?

It’s starting to get hot, particularly game used bats. Specifically, Ruth, Gehrig, and Cobb. I’m referring to the very highest caliber and the very highest quality. We have seen these prices when it comes to the cards. I foresee the price of bats as the next thing to go high. A Ruth card is worth $3.5 million. A PSA 9 Babe Ruth bat is $282,000, a fraction of what his high grade cards cost. Even if it’s $500,000-$600,000, it’s still a bargain. Hunt just sold for a little over a million dollars a home run bat with Ruth’s eight notches he carved for home runs. If you think about it, here’s a rookie card that Ruth never touched in his life. I could buy a bat that he held in his hands and he notched. It’s a third of what the card sells for.

Cards are the foundation. Most people don’t start in memorabilia even as kids. Then we develop a taste for memorabilia. Cards are a truer market. They are trading every day. It’s easier to chart the prices— upticks or downticks. For the most part, it’s easier to say this is a 7,8, or a 9. With memorabilia, it’s left to the imagination. What’s a Ruth bat with home run notches worth?

David: Is game-worn finally getting its attention?

Brian: The rise is even more to come for high-end game used jerseys. Mantle, Mays, Clemente, Koufax, and, God forbid, Ruth.

David: With bats and jerseys prices going up, I’ve been following game used caps.

Brian: If you have caps with real great provenance, I think that is great value. They are a pittance, outside of Ruth and Gehrig. In some instances they are every bit as prominent as jerseys. It just stands to reason that caps will increase in value.

David: At July’s National Sports Collectors Convention, I asked you to pick three items worth investing in. Here were your answers.

Brian: “Any high-grade Ruth cards. His Sporting News rookie, Goudeys and Sports Kings. They will go even higher.”

“Game-used Ruth bats. Prices have not escalated like his cards. I could not be more bullish on them.”

“I’m also bullish on unopened ‘50s and ‘60s baseball wax packs.  I like boxes when you can find them.  Those are outstanding finds. Prices have gone crazy, but they are still undervalued.”

David: How have your picks held up?

Brian:  I am still bullish, especially with unopened packs. Companies like Leighton Sheldon’s Vintage Breaks are breaking a lot. There’s not enough. Every day it’s diminishing. 

David: What will the market look like in three to five years?

I think it’s going to mature at just as fast a rate if even faster than the last two years. There will be more need for material for the market. There will be a lot more fractionalization. The value will be greater. Old school card shows are returning. There are more want list services and card trackers on the Internet. Sports collectibles headlined by high grades will become liquid and more like assets and commodities. Values will increase. 

David: The infusion of younger collectors/investors spells good news.

Brian: At shows, I see guys in their 20s wearing polo shirts and Gucci loafers, They can have $500,000 to a million dollars. 

And there are younger kids from 16 to 19 years-old asking for high end cards. These kids are trading NFTs. 

They start small, then make one deal after the next. I have seen savvy kids with a million dollars. They are trading this Mahomes for that Kobe Bryant. It can be done. There are even young guys with two million dollars. They know it’s cards, but they don’t view it as cards. They view it as the hustle. They are just hustling. I think it’s great. It’s fantastic!

When a collector recently bought a rare lot of Mexican Negro League cards on eBay, it included a signed postcard of the immortal Josh Gibson. But Sports Collectors Daily, which broke the news, reported that “many forged [Gibson] postcards exist.” The authority they cited was Ron Keurajian, a leading authenticator known for really doing his homework.

 

Keurajian is the author of two seminal books,  Baseball Hall of Fame Autographs: A Reference Guide, 1st edition and second edition. (Both are available on Amazon.) In his exhaustively researched books, Keurajian digs deeply into archives for signatures on everything from wills to motor vehicle licenses. As a longtime Forbes senior contributor, covering the purchase of sports collectibles for fun and profit, I frequently reached out to Keurajian for autograph and investment advice. On two occasions he was a guest contributor, offering prescient guidance worthwhile investments that would have made me a wealthier man had I followed it. A banker by day, Keurajian has both feet planted in the collecting and investment worlds.—David Seideman

 

David: Hi, Ron. Welcome to Collectable U.  We’re excited to have you because of your deep knowledge of the autograph world and your canny forecasting of the market. How long have you been collecting autographs and how did you start?

Ron: I started collecting autographs in the late 1970s when I was 10 years-old.  Early on it was just the current players of the day; Rusty Staub, Milt May, Lance Parrish and the like.  In the early 1980s I started to collect former players and Hall of Famers. Tigers second baseman Charlie Gehringer lived by me, and I was lucky enough to meet him and he gave me a signed Hall of Fame plaque postcard of him.  

I have always been fascinated by old time baseball and autographs.  To me, the appeal is they are so personal, no two are alike and the player actually touched the piece.  Babe Ruth actually had his hands on that baseball!

David: Tell us about some of your early buys when a Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb signed ball cost $50. Did you buy any?

Ron: Back in the 1980s they used to have really good card shows in Plymouth, Michigan.  Dealers from all over the country would attend and autographs and cards were really affordable.  I can remember one dealer had a complete T201 card set in excellent condition; asking price was $400.  In the early 1980s both Cobb and Ruth baseballs could be purchased for under $100.  Yankees signed team baseballs from the 1930s with a Gehrig signature were a little pricier, but not by much.  Now a Gehrig ball is worth at least $4,000 to $5,000. I remember buying a nice 1937 Yankees ball with Gehrig, Lazzeri, DiMaggio and the rest for $125.  I also secured a game used American League baseball signed and inscribed by Babe Ruth in bold black ink, that one set me back $75. The Ruth is easily $15,000 I still have both to this day.

Ty Cobb’s daughter, Beverly Cobb McLaren, was running the Cobb Educational Foundation. Cobb had set up this charity to help underprivileged kids go to college.   Back in the mid-1980s if you donated $20 to the foundation, she would send you a signed bank check of The Georgia Peach himself.   Many forward-thinking collectors, including myself, obtained multiple examples.  Today they are worth $3,000.   Forty years ago just about all Cobb and Ruth cards and autographs could be purchased for $100 or less.  A 1933 Goudey Ruth in very good to excellent condition was a mere $50 to $75; today that same card sells for $20,000 to $30,000.   Times have certainly changed. 

David: What’s your best acquisition?

Ron: Many years ago, I purchased an American League baseball signed by both Cobb and Ruth.  It was signed in 1925 at Navin Field here in Detroit. I bought it from the original owner.  It is not in the greatest condition but to have something signed by the greatest player and greatest slugger on one item is a treasure and probably valued at $10,000, though I would never sell it.   I also have a New York Giants payroll check from 1902 endorsed on back by Christy Mathewson.  It is one of the earliest Matty signatures known.  I bought it back in 1988 for $350, that was by far and away my biggest purchase up to that time. The current value is around $15,000.   Today, both reside in my safety deposit box.

David: Writing for Forbes, you were very prescient about buying signed Koufax rookie cards. How much have they appreciated since you suggested that in 2017?

Ron: Koufax signed rookie cards generate strong demand.  Four years ago, a nice, signed example could be purchased on eBay for $750 to $1,000.   Today recently completed eBay sales show that these cards are selling for $3,500 to $4,500 with a superior signed example selling for over $10,000.  That is a strong rate of return.  High grade specimens will continue to increase nicely.  Unfortunately, many signed examples that have been certified and slabbed as genuine by the authentication companies are nothing more than forgeries, so caution is warranted.

David: You also had the good sense to place big bets on Ty Cobb in another Forbes piece. His cards have and memorabilia have since skyrocketed. Why do you think they were so undervalued, and will they continue to rise?

Ron: Cobb is a magical name in history, American or otherwise. He remains a household name. Considering that he played his last game close to 95 years ago; that is quite impressive.  In 2016 when I wrote my Forbes article about investing in Cobb material a T206 red portrait, graded 8, was worth in the $40,000 range.  In the years that followed auction prices have reach close to $200,000 for the red portrait.  

David: How high can this material go?  I have been asking myself that for the past 30 years.  Values continue to march on.  The green portrait of that same set blows by the red, in terms of demand.  A green portrait, graded an 8, is approaching $500,000.  Cobb cards are becoming prohibitively expensive, heavy hitting investors are targeting this material.  

Ron: I suggest buying anything related to Cobb that was issued during his playing career, it does not matter what it is.  Pins, domino discs, postcards, premiums, felts, etc.  The 1914 blanket set (catalogued as B-18) is a fine example.  There are three different Cobb blankets, and they have all increased in value.  A couple of years back a nice condition white infield version, the most common, could be purchased for $150.  Today, they are selling for around  $1,000.  If you cannot afford the tobacco cards the odd ball material is quite attractive and should progress nicely. 

Simply put, Cobb is pure gold.

David: As you’ve noted, you’re very bullish on Babe Ruth, saying you can’t go wrong. Can his cards and autographs double over the next several years?

Ron: Cobb may have received more votes than Ruth in the first Hall of Fame vote, but the Babe is the most beloved athlete of all time.  Demand for his material is off the charts, and like Cobb, it will never fade.  His autographs over the past three years have tripled in value.  A nice Ruth signature could be purchased for $2,000. Today they sell on eBay for $6,000 to $7,000.  A signed baseball, in average condition will sell for over $10,000 with museum grade specimens starting at $50,000.  I can easily see Ruth material doubling in a couple of years.  I really like any Ruth Goudey card, even the 1935 Goudey 4 in 1 which for many years was looked down upon, demand for these cards is very strong,   

As material is removed from the market demand will only increase.  You cannot quantify demand for Ruth.  In terms of liquidity, Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb have hit commodity status. If you list a card at market value, its gone within 24 hours.  

David: What are astute people collecting these days?  What’s moving markets? 

Ron: These two questions are closely tied together.  Value of certain desired items, whether it be collectibles, metals, stocks, or bulk staples are determined by demand and the existence of alternative investments.  Rate of return and principal protection are key.  Values rise or fall based on what investment vehicles are available at any particular time.  Today we see the stock market increasing nicely, perhaps too much. Cash is pouring into the market because the main alternative investment has little rate of return, that being the certificate of deposit.  A safe investment to be sure but a weak rate of return; hence money is dumped into stocks.  If interest rates increased and CDs were paying 6% to 7% over two years, the stock market would see a material decline.  

Now you have a principal guaranteed vehicle with an acceptable ROR to park your money.   The lack of alternative investments has been a boom for the baseball market.  If you feel stocks are inflated and due for a correction and don’t want to invest in CDs that pay essentially nothing, then where does the money go?  Cobb, Ruth, and Mickey Mantle!  A lot of non-collector investor money is being dumped into these three names — thus the rapid increase.  These three make up the core of the entire sports memorabilia world, baseball or otherwise.  They increase demand for other names.  

The second tier that also generates sound demand centers on Christy Mathewson, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Honus Wagner, Jackie Robinson, Lou Gehrig, and Joe DiMaggio.  Shoeless Joe Jackson is also in great demand, but material is very limited when compared to the names above.  After the Black Sox scandal and lifetime banishment from baseball, Jackson material went into the trash by early collectors trying to erase the stain of the 1919 fix.  Today, supply of investment grade Jackson material is restricted.  

As of this writing, lesser grade Topps Mantle cards from the 1960s are still affordable.  I consider these to be a good investment with strong upside potential.  I also think higher grade  Topps cards of Stan Musial, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Sandy Koufax, and Willie Mays, are good targets as well as pre-1976 cards of Pete Rose, Brooks Robinson and Nolan Ryan.  I can see these cards really starting to move in the next year or so.

There is, however, a caveat.  Certain big names are increasing nicely in value but at the expense of other names.  The current money is targeting Cobb, Gehrig et. al. as demand for other names has dropped.  Values for names like Sam Crawford, Chuck Klein, Herb Pennock, Paul Waner, and other less known Hall of Famers have stalled.

One final thought, It is not just the baseball market that is hot, other areas of collecting are also realizing strong rate of return.  For example, I have been telling people to buy good quality vintage beer cans, the older the better. Over the last 12 months some have tripled in value!

David: What makes something rare and collectible? Please give examples.

Ron: Demand drives everything.  Rarity is a relative term.  Something can be rare but of little value if no market exists. Take for example a signature of Bill Sweeney, an infielder for the Chicago Cubs who played in the dead ball era.  He died in 1948 and his signature is rare but of little value; no one really wants it.  As to collectability, focus on the legends and quality items.  Avoid the pedestrian material, you may have to spend a little more but in the long run it will be worth it.

David: How do you spot fraud? One piece of advice I have heard, even from auction house heads like Mike Heffner at Lelands, is to examine as many examples of autographs as you possibly can in reference books and on the Internet, no matter who says it’s real.

Ron: Fraud and collectibles go hand in hand.  The more something is worth the more likely it will be targeted by the criminal element. Forgeries, fakes, and counterfeit items are lurking around every corner.  Follow the general rule: If it is too good to be true it probably is.   The majority of Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig autographs in the market are fake, certified or otherwise.  Use common sense.  DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

David: Which autographs are most commonly forged?

Ron: Mostly the newer players simply because their signatures are illegible with no measurable  letter construction and because of this they are quite easy to forge.   Take Mike Trout for example. The signature is a mere scrawl of ink and hence easily forged.   The same can be said for Tom Brady, LeBron James, Justin Verlander, Frank Thomas, and the list goes on and on. I fear penmanship appears to be a dying art replaced by the expediency of gibberish scribbles.  

A forger with limited skills can produce convincing forgeries of the modern celebrities.   The older, more expensive, signatures require a higher level of skill to create.  It would be far more difficult to replicate a signature with strong letter construction such as Tris Speaker or Harry Heilmann.  A forger of skill is needed.  Moreover, a forger who wishes to dabble in the vintage names must also fake the aging process, this is no easy task.  If you wish to forge a signature of Willie Keeler (an autograph easily worth over $10,000) then you must make it appear to be 100 years old.  That is an extra layer of skill needed.  In short, it is simply easier to create multiple Trout forgeries and sell them for a couple hundred bucks a piece.   

David: Where do you see the vintage autograph industry in 3-5 years?

Ron; I think the market will continue to grow, at least for certain bid names I have highlighted.  As with anything else, research before dropping cash into an investment.  Tread carefully before buying lest you may drown.   Certain names fall out of favor and demand may never return. The back bench Hall of Famers seem to be losing steam.  Bill McKechnie, Dave Bancroft, and executives like Will Harridge and Billy Evans are good examples.  In recent years demand for Roy Campanella material has stalled.  We are seeing this in other areas of autographs.  Values of certain authors and composers have plummeted over the past 40 years.  Signatures of James Fenimore Cooper and Zane Grey were worth a lot more 20 years ago.  

The market will always be there for the legends of the game.

In August 2021, a 1950 Jackie Robinson Jersey sold for over $4.2 million, a sale many collectors view as one catalyst in back of game used memorabilia’s recent surge.  For collectible historians, the sale represents a far cry from the $50,000 that a 1949 Robinson jersey, consigned by Rachel Robinson, fetched in 1992 at the dawn of the sports memorabilia craze.

Collectable’s Senior Editor David Seideman caught up with the top expert in vintage baseball jerseys, Dave Grob, who explained in depth the potential and perils of investing in the shirts off players’ backs.

 

Hi, Dave. Welcome to Collectable U.  We’re excited to have you because you’re the leading authority on vintage baseball uniforms as the head of SGC’s game-worn uniform authentication division.  You’re also the co-author of Game Worn: Baseball Treasures from the Game’s Greatest Heroes and Moments (Smithsonian Books), which was nominated for a prestigious Casey Award. I own this book and highly recommend it.

David: How long have you been authenticating baseball jerseys?

The whole thing started for me in the late 1980s when I left Cincinnati for active duty with the Army.  I was collecting Reds game-used uniforms as a way to stay connected with my hometown team.  As I started looking at uniforms, I noticed there was not much information available on them, and what little there was, was very inconsistent and did not appear to be backed up by any real or significant research.  As such, one of my first projects was to build a database spreadsheet that captured hundreds of previously offered uniforms by team, year, player, home/road, size, and manufacturer.  This initial work enabled me to see trends and begin to identify inconsistencies. 

You authenticated the two most valuable and celebrated jerseys in the hobby: a 1928-1930 Babe Ruth that fetched  $5.64 million in a 2019 Hunt auction and a Ruth $4.4 million circa 1920 jersey in SCP Auctions in 2012. Do the prices surprise you?

At first, both of those figures were staggering.  Then upon reflection and considering what they were within the context, player, artifact, significance beyond the world of sports, and extreme low density (known surviving examples) as compared to something like a Honus Wagner T-206s the numbers made much more sense. I would estimate that the known population of Ruth jerseys in private collections is less than a dozen, including his coaches and special event uniforms. (By contrast, there are about 75 Wagners.)

How long did it take you to authenticate them and were there any challenges?

Both uniforms took weeks to complete.  While I did not experience any real technical challenges, there is always the challenge and pressure associated with working on items of this magnitude. 

Do you do the same thorough research for all your gloves?

To be honest, as for a couple of “real examples”, collectors need to know and understand that for the most part, I follow the same research and examination protocols for a 1920s Babe Ruth jersey that I do for a 1980s George Brett jersey.  My work involves asking and answering a fairly common set of questions.  What differs is the references and resources used to answer the question. 

When you authenticated the latest Ruth jersey you said that, “Every time I am presented with a historic uniform like this striking example, I am always rooting for the jersey because, if it proves to be authentic, it means that an extraordinary piece of baseball history has survived. However, I always make sure that my passion does not interfere with my final decision, which is based on detailed fabric and construction analysis.” Briefly, please, what do you mean by “detailed fabric and construction analysis?”

While looking at images certainly has its place in the process, what I am referring to here is the requirement and ability to conduct comparative analysis between the jersey in question and on-hand period reference uniforms.  This involves factors such as looking at the fabric for the body of the jersey and then being able to make an informed assessment as to if the fabric is period to the time frame in question as well as making an assessment as to the comparative quality of the fabric (major league quality fabric as opposed to something found in a lower quality garment.)  I can do this based on my exemplar library which includes major league and lesser quality uniforms that goes back roughly the past 100 years.  In addition to the uniforms, I also have a number of manufacturer’s fabric sample catalogs that provide an accurate baseline for comparative analysis.  

One basic rule of thumb is that poly knit replaced flannel in 1972, right?

Better to say “replaced by 1973.” Knits were first worn in 1970 by the Pirates, in 1971 by the Orioles and Cardinals, and by most teams in 1972.

What are simple things should collectors look for to detect fraud, common scourge for jerseys?

I’m not sure there is “simple” answer to this question since as a function of physical complexity, there are many more variables involved when looking at a jersey as opposed to a bat or card.  Also, you have to consider the period in question.  

By that I mean, a bat made in the 1920s, physically has a great deal in common with one made in the 1970s or 1980s. Other than some “cosmetic differences in the form of label branding”  is there a significant difference between a 35″, H&B model R43 bat that was made in 1944 for a major league player and one made by them in 1974?  Now compare and contrast that with a major league jersey made by Rawlings made for major league use in 1944 and one made in 1974?  

Same with cards, but clearly not the same with uniforms.  Between the 1920s and 1970s, there were significant changes in uniforms with respect to fabrics, manufacturing techniques, manner of construction, fit, style, and design.  Any detailed analysis of a uniform has to have a very mature understanding of all of this as an initial point of departure. That being said,  I will offer one thing your readers deal with by looking at the “name in the collar” (NIC) for many vintage uniforms.  

While this can and does vary over time (direct embroidery, name embroidered on a swatch, etc..) this form of supplemental tagging for player identification typically involves this application being sewn or affixed only through the first layer or fabric in the rear of the collar.  When collectors come across a jersey like this, they need to make sure the collar area has not been opened up and resewn in order to add this tagging.  Some fakes are better than others, and at times it comes down to using a digital microscope to spot that the forger used a two- ply thread when the rest of the collar area was closed with a three-ply thread.  

It sounds as though vintage baseball jerseys are some of the most daunting memorabilia to authenticate.

Yes, as I’ve noted, all of this is far more complex than bats or cards since there are far more variables to be considered against the backdrop of period of time, team, and manufacturer as well.  For example take the hypothetical 1954 Ed Smith, Podunk Skunks home jersey.

Size:  The jersey is tagged as a size 42.  Is this the actual and true size of the jersey when measured and compared to other period jerseys by the same manufacturer?  Is a size 42 appropriate for Ed Smith at this point in time as compared to other known jerseys of his as well as contemporary sizing data (team yearbook, Who’s Who in Baseball, Street & Smith Annual, newspaper account etc?)  Remember static resources like Baseball Reference.com and Total Baseball only give a single entry.

Tagging:  The jersey has a “Big League Brands” tag in the rear of the collar.  

 Did “Big League Brands” provide jerseys to the Skunks at this period of time: homes, roads, or both?

Is this style tag appropriate for the period by style, placement, manner of being affixed?

Do the same questions apply for any other supplemental tagging?

Is this tagging assessed as being original applications or are their signs or evidence of contrived application? 

Construction: Are there things unique about “Big League Brands” jerseys from this period as opposed to Rawlings, Spalding, Wilson, MacGregor, etc?

Are the fabrics period appropriate and of a major league quality?

What about the manner of application?  In-line stitch or zig zag stitch?

Manner of closure?  Button and or zipper?  Are these appropriate for the manufacturer and are they period appropriate as well?

Sleeve style?  Set in or Raglan (sleeves that continue in one piece up to the neck of a garment, without a shoulder seam)?

Sleeve length?

Finally, what was the basis for making an assessment on all of this?  If all you are using is a jersey that was previously offered in the hobby, how do you know that one was problem free if you never examined it?

Now mind you, there are probably things that are inherently different between the jerseys that “Big League Brands” produced in 1944, 1954, 1964, and 1974.  Some of these may be common from team to team, others might not be…

What should astute collectors collect?

By “astute”  I am assuming you are referring to return on investment (ROI)?

Yes, that’s what I mean.

Then look for uniforms that have an enduring appeal.  This can be by rare styles (even of common players), players from teams that have and continue to have a strong historic appeal, and then the marque names from the game’s history.  Look for value discrepancies that don’t appear to be grounded in data or any objective rationale.  For example,  a player whose career spanned the late 1960s and the early to mid- 1970s.  Here we typically see much higher prices for a flannel from say 1969-1971 than we do for a knit jersey from say 1972-74.  Mind you in many cases the flannel is no rarer than the knit with respect to surviving examples (in some cases, just the opposite),  but the flannel will command a higher price just because flannels drove the market when the hobby was in its infancy in the 1980s and 1990s.  Remember those 1970s knits are now going on being a half century old at this point. 

What should they avoid?

I would caution collectors to be guarded about spending a significant amount of money on players whose legacy is not secure.  In other words, the modern player or star may be just one slip in the shower or moment captured on a cell phone from being at best, a has-been, and at worst a social pariah. 

As the co-author of an acclaimed Smithsonian book on jerseys, what are some of the most outstanding jerseys you have seen in person?

That’s tough to say decades of work as there aren’t many 20th century Hall of Famers I have not seen jerseys of.  That being said,  Jackie Robinson uniforms are always exciting to handle.  Over the years, I have examined seven of them.  Robinson’s impact on America transcends the game of baseball, and as such, his jerseys are more akin to historic artifacts than simply pieces of sports memorabilia to be displayed and collected. To hold and handle a Jackie Robinson jersey is a privilege, not a job.

You collect jerseys, right? 

I do, but in recent years the majority of my favorite uniforms have made their way to the Cincinnati Reds Hall of Fame. These have included a 1936 Ernie Lombardi jacket, a 1940 Bucky Walters jersey, and 1969 jerseys of Johnny Bench and Tony Perez.

What makes you so passionate about jerseys?

I have both a passion for research and uniforms. To me, there is no more personal artifact than the jersey.  A player on an off day may not even pick up a glove or a bat, but the uniform remains a constant. A player may use another player’s glove or bat, but the uniform remains almost exclusively personal.

What are the attributes that make jerseys desirable? I’m sure one is scarcity. Players were issued only one home and one road. Right? 

Interesting question, and even more interesting you brought up the number of jerseys a player was issued.  This too is something that changed over time and even varied between teams and even for individual players.  The much banter about “two homes and two roads” was a hobby/convention/gospel that has not aged well.  In most cases though, desirability has been influenced by condition or “grade”.  As stated before, the density for jerseys, especially vintage offerings, is significantly lower than bats and cards. While a collector can and may afford to wait for an “8” bat or card,  they may not be afforded the same opportunity when it comes to a jersey.

I’m sure you’re aware that modern cards have recently sold for millions of dollars. Why is key memorabilia, topped by vintage baseball jerseys, so undervalued in comparison? I know most knowledgeable people in the hobby feel this way.

I think there are a few factors in play here. First, a card is an easier “commodity” to buy, store, and resell as a function of size.  They are also trackable via “pop reports” down to the individual example.  I have been tracking uniforms, and in many cases jerseys, for decades and have assembled my own “pop report” if you will so I understand the rarity in very stark terms.  My belief is that since so many of the same uniforms, even for big name Hall of Famers, have been offered in the hobby multiple times over the years, it has created an artificial perception that they exist in greater quantities than they actually exist.

In June, Hunt Auctions sold a 1950 Jackie Robinson jersey for more than $4.2 million. Collectable recently sold a 1964-1965 Sandy Koufax jersey for $511,800. Obviously, these are two of the biggest names in the hobby. But does this encourage you about the jersey market?

In some ways it does, but this is only a very narrow segment of the “jersey market”.  In some ways, prices like this, while completely valid for what they are, can distort the market.  By that,  I mean if you’re thinking you will see the same level of appreciation on modern jerseys, you need to realize that only a fraction of the jerseys issued to and worn by Robinson and Koufax remain today.  For the modern player,  none of these are going anywhere except from the player/team to the hobby/industry. (Thus making them much more availlable).

Finally, since there are so many modern jerseys issued than vintage, do you see more upside with vintage?

I do, without a doubt.  And for me I define “vintage as pre-1990. That year is a convenient cut-off for me as it is at the midpoint between the transition from Rawlings to Russell as the official supplier of jerseys to the major leagues and the point at which the proliferation of uniforms was really in full swing.

Dan: Anthony, thanks for joining us on CollectableU! For those who don’t know, you are the man behind the Top Notch Sports Club and Top Notch Investing. We actually met through your breaking company at the time, years ago. Let’s start from the top. How did you get started in collecting and investing? 

My dad owned a little convenience store in our city and he sold sports cards out of it. He always had stuff for us to open, so I’ve been around cards my entire life. As a kid I would open a ton of wax. When I was 16, I stumbled upon someone opening personal boxes in a shop on YouTube and I fell in love with it. That’s what got me heavily into the wax game. Started in 2007, took a break in 2010 and got back into it in 2015. 

Dan: Let’s get into why we’re here. You’ve been pretty open about your alternative asset investing strategies within the collectibles space – notably investing in sealed products, like trading cards and video games.  What do you find so appealing about these markets? 

Yes, I’m always transparent with my investments. I have a passion for what I do and I like to share it with everyone. By doing so, I hope to expand their knowledge and thought process on alternative investing opportunities – always putting their success first.

My thesis on investing in these markets always falls back to one thing – nostalgia. In every investment I make, I’m constantly thinking, “was it big then and why?”. 

During the pandemic, many were stuck at home and bored. I immediately thought about areas of the market that could benefit from a nostalgia surge. I arrived at trading cards, pokemon and video games – a thesis that proved correct to this point – and I went hard on those investment opportunities. I’m a firm believer in sealed products for one simple reason: they tend to get more rare and coveted over time. Very few people have the discipline to keep these assets sealed for long periods of time. The temptation to rip or break open is strong, particularly with popular products! So, if you have the discipline and long term investment mentality, original sealed products is a terrific investment.

Dan: Let’s hone in on sports sealed products. As you think about investment opportunities within the sealed wax space, do you target individual players or products? If so, how do you select your investment criteria? 

I usually identify the athletes I think are highly investable and work backwards from there. My two targets won’t come as a surprise to collectors, but I still think there’s tremendous upside in both players: Tom Brady and LeBron James. They are icons on and off the field/court, with many catalysts on the horizon to increase their value.

Dan: Collectable currently has an IPO open for a sealed 2003-04 Exquisite Basketball box. What do you think makes it one of the premier boxes in the entire NBA hobby? 

It’s simply one of the most iconic boxes in the history of sports cards – and certainly within modern basketball products.  Not a ton of it was made and there’s very few sealed boxes in existence. As the values of certain key cards within the set rises – most notably the LeBron James rookie – the temptation to rip open the product to see what’s inside will be strong!

The wax product is a way to get exposure to the rising card prices within the set, and to own the 2003-04 NBA draft class – one of the most iconic in history.  But you’re getting exposure to it via an asset highly likely to appreciate in value over time. Why? Well, because the population will likely continue to decrease as people open their sealed boxes over time and you don’t!

Simply put, your unopened box becomes more valuable as other people open theirs because the scarcity increases. All about supply and demand! 

Dan: From your experience and data, how correlated are the prices of sealed product to the prices of key cards within the set? For instance, when a LeBron Exquisite RPA sells for a record price, does the sealed wax of the 2003-04 Exquisite Basketball immediately rise in tandem? If so, how closely does it perform? 

The price is certainly highly correlated. For instance, take 2003-04 Exquisite Basketball – most renowned for the monster LeBron Rookie Patch Auto cards. Exquisite boxes were trading for about $35,000. Then, in July 2020, a LeBron James Exquisite RPA sold for $1.8m. The price of wax immediately escalated to over $100,000. Same thing happened with the 1986 fleer wax. The price of the wax moved in tandem with the record Michael Jordan sales. While I don’t have specific correlation data in front of me, these correlations certainly exist all the time and act as a catalyst for wax prices. 

Dan: What recent product lines do you think have real investability? In other words, which recent products do you believe will hold or increase in value over time? 

Here, it’s important to think in terms of supply and demand. Remember, the more popular the product, the greater likelihood it gets ripped open and not kept sealed! So naturally, if you’re investing in a sealed product, you want to find products you feel will be so popular that most of the supply gets ripped open – thus making your unopened product that much more scarce and valuable! Panini Flawless of any sport falls into this category. So does National Treasures Football and Basketball. Other than that, I would say Bowman and Bowman Draft Baseball have staying power. 

Dan: Let’s talk about valuations. Wax isn’t typically as “liquid” as single card sales. How do you think about valuing sealed products when recent direct sales comparables are not available to you? 

This can be a unique challenge with certain wax products, just like it woud be for investing in illiquid cards that don’t have recent comps. In fact, I recently ran into this situation with Skybox Metal Universe where a direct comp did not exist. 

In these cases, I look at the market overall and the market of the cards within the sealed product and essentially do a probability analysis. What’s my likelihood of pulling a certain card and what’s the probability that it would receive a certain grade? That’s essentially how I think about wax. From there, I can come up with a fairly educated guess on the valuation you can assign. 

Remember, as cards from a product trade higher in value, so will corresponding prices of wax of that product and vice versa. 

Dan: From our intel, it seems like the market is smartening up to sealed product as a terrific investment opportunity. Do you anticipate more investors buying sealed product to keep it sealed? 

Yes absolutely. Many new investors are getting into the sealed market strictly for investment purposes. But in many cases, the damage has already been done as people already opened product from years prior. In future years, I do anticipate more people storing sealed product away in hopes of generating superior returns. If this were to happen, it may be the case that sealed product underperforms given the increased supply of sealed.

That said, with the expansion and popularity of breakers, a lot of wax product is being ripped and the demand is much higher. Eventually the product will dry up. Interesting dynamics to consider here. 

Dan: Aside from the pure investment potential, what is it about sealed product that makes it “exciting” for collectors? 

Aside from the scarcity and rarity component, and the investment potential, I think it’s the “What If” factor. There’s always the possibility that you have a monster card or multiple monster cards in your sealed product, but you just don’t know. It can be tantalizing and fun to dream about what’s inside. 

Dan: Do you think we will ever see a registry or pop report for sealed product? BBCE (Baseball Card Exchange) is the king of authenticating sealed product at the moment.  Would you like to see one of the main card grading companies get involved in order to keep track of populations?

A lot of people don’t know this, but BBCE actually grades the packs for PSA. I believe BBCE will continue to be the only company collectors will go to and trust for wrapped wax – and I prefer it stays that way!

Honestly, if another company got into the wax authentication business, such as PSA, it might bring more wax out of the woodworks – and actually decrease the perceived scarcity.  That said, the population counts would likely still be really low and supportive of strong investment returns. 

Dan: Can you tell us about a few of your favorite boxes/cases that you have in your collection?

Love the 2003-04 Exquisite Basketball box and the 2003-04 Topps Chrome NBA, both of which Collectable has on the platform, due to the iconic LeBron rookies. I also had a handful of 96/97 Metal Universe NBA boxes but I just recently moved those. I also own a case of 2017 Contenders NFL with the Mahomes rookie card auto potential. I believe in that kid!

Dan: CollectableU is read by some big players in the industry. Is there anything on your wishlist that you want our readers to keep an eye out for you?

I’m always looking for rare Lebron rookie year stuff and will continue to! Next on my list is a horizontal exquisite RPA.

Dan: Thank you again so much for sitting down to chat with us. As a final question, if you could give any one piece of advice to someone collecting out there, what would it be?

Thanks for having me! My one piece of advice would be this: when you have conviction in something, don’t be afraid to size it up accordingly. You won’t win every time but if you truly believe in something and understand the intricacies of the market, your odds for success are great. 

David: John, welcome to Collectable U. It’s exciting to have you because you’re the hobby’s go-to-guy for bat authentication and grading through PSA.  Collectors may not know it, but you’re also an expert in game-used fielding gloves and game-worn caps. Please tell us how you got into the business.  

John:  I have been involved in collecting bats for 35 years. At the beginning I started buying and selling to support my habit. There were a few bat collectors back then.  Vince Malta and I established a relationship with the original Louisville Slugger company to educate ourselves just to make sure that our bats were authentic.  They allowed us to go down there and examine extensive players’ records of what they ordered.

In the early 1980s,Ty Cobb bats sold for a thousand dollars or less. Mickey Mantle bats from the early 1960s were cheaper. Today his bats go for $75,000-$100,000. And a Cobb can be a million dollars.

I have handled them all.  Knock wood. The reason I am the foremost authority is that I am the only authority. Being able to do this and make a living off what was a hobby  is a gift.  

David: You mentioned a recent Cobb bat selling for $1.1 million in a private sale. I looked up the details and the 34.5 inch, 40.1-ounce ash Hillerich & Bradsby war club and it received a perfect a perfect GU 10 score (on a scale of one to ten)  from you, meaning  it “must be fully documented or possess extraordinary player characteristics, match available factory records and exhibit medium to heavy use.”

John:  It was a beautiful, beautiful Cobb bat that set a record price for his bat, It was literally black with tobacco juice and there were two letters from Cobb himself (attesting to its authenticity).  He would spit on the barrels of his bats as one of his Intimidation factors. There were cleat marks on the upper barrel, which were well documented on his Louisville Sluggers from the late teens to the early 20s. When you look at pictures of him from the period, you’ll also see that Cobb did a spiral tape application. There are few Cobb bats within the hobby without tape. 

David: One of the things I love about game-used bats like Cobb’s is that they often have such personality, showing each player’s individual characteristics.  

John:  Yes. There are notable examples. Ruth’s 52nd home run bat from the 1921 season (which Heritage sold for nearly $1 million in 2020) had heavy barrel scoring. That was a Ruth trait. He would take a nail or bottle cap and gouge the grain to improve the grip on the handle.  In the mid-late 1920s, he would notch homers in his bat like a gun slinger. He was a character!The one in the Hall of Fame has 28 notches around the Louisville Slugger brand above the bat’s handle. Another at the Louisville Slugger Museum has 21 notches. [Both bats document his record-setting 60 homers in 1927.) A notched Ruth bat has not changed hands in the recent past. I would put it at a $1 million plus.

David: What are some other examples of individual characteristics on bats?

Obviously we know from the 1983 game that George Brett used heavy tar pine up the center label. Back then Johnny Bench put tar up to the center brand, too.  But that looks like relatively little pine tar compared to the early 90s when the pine tar almost appears to have been poured on.  The umpires revised the rule after the Brett game, leaving it to the umpire’s discretion.  Otherwise, after Billy Martin, managers would be waiting for the moment.

According to baseball folklore, Eddie Colllins, was said aid to put his bats in a dung heap. Joe DiMaggio would sand the handle. One of his grip substances was olive oil and rosin. Rosin makes it tacky. It came from the bat boy, Johnny Orlando. When his would build up too much rosin. Ted Williams would scrape it off with a butter knife.

Among contemporaries,  Ken Griffey criss-crossed his handles with tape. A-Rod and Derek Jeeter tended to leave cleat marks on the barrel to knock the dirt out in ways that are unique to each player. Jeter left small dents in the barrel. A-Rod’s were deeper. Wade Boggs had a heavy amount of tar from the center brand down to the lower handle.

David: I love the story a few years ago at Love of the Game Auctions of the Lou Gehrig bat propped up against a door for home defense in New Jersey. The auction house’s owner, Al Crisafulli, photo matched the manufacturer and the grain to a bat Gehrig held at the All Star game.

John: We authenticated it. Finding a photo used to be a needle in a haystack. Today, with contemporary bats, photo matching is almost required. Getty images takes 200 pictures. By the next morning, they are on the web. All are digital and sharp as a tack. We can look at the images and  we can match. Photo matching is insurance for the bat.

I also still have a pretty extensive database thanks to Louisville Slugger. Years ago, we copied a lot. They are very cooperative as are other bat manufactures who have the ability to make sure a bat is professional and authentic. Plus a player’s identifying characteristics  are important.  I use as many resources as possible. For example, the Babe Ruth Story talks about him notching about his bats.

David:  Ninety-nine percent of bats at flea markets and garage sales are store models, but I have found a few gamers. (One telltale sign is inch marks instead of model numbers on the knob.) An antique dealer I know even bought a Duke Snider gamer in a barrel of bats for $5.

John:  We still hear the $5 and $10 stories. Placing it in the player’s hands is key. Snider had a wide and specific criss-cross handle application. The condition of these bats is generally poor to good, which makes it difficult to find the identifying characteristics. Without the tape, it’s graded a five to seven. If it has the tape, it’s an eight to ten. And there’s the uniform number on the knob. They have specific styles. Is it a vintage marker? Is it old paint? There are all the things you need to be made aware of. 

David: Speaking of condition, what about cracked bats?  You’d have to face a very hard throwing pitcher to break a bat. No?

John: Actually, on a hobby whole  collectors prefer uncracked. A cracked bat lends more to the actual use. But it is a condition issue dictated by the hobby. Even if it’s a minor crack, the grade is knocked down half a point.

David: Your bat grading standards are on PSA’s website (https://www.psacard.com/services/batgradingstandards). A perfect 10, as noted, “must be fully documented or possess extraordinary player characteristics, match available factory records and exhibit medium to heavy use.” A PSA 5 must match available factory records, possess identifiable player characteristics and will, most likely, exhibit no evidence of use. In essence, this is a game ready bat that did not see action.”   In layman’s terms, can you please briefly explain what distinguishes, say, an eight from a ten?

John: What distinguishes an 8 from a 10 is the condition of the bat, cracked or uncracked and the amount of use, the player characteristics displayed and provenance provided.

David: Give us an idea how many bats players have used per season. Relatively speaking, you see your share of Ruth bats, but they remain the most valuable.

John:  In the older days, players like Gehrig would go through 30 to 40. Ruth would use up to a 100. Ruth and Cobb have a fair amount of bats in the hobby. Babe Ruth was a very known personality. He was outgoing and affable. Happy go lucky. The largest figure in sports. Probably no one surpassed him in magnitude . He gifted bats and autograph balls his entire career. Even after his career, he did so till the time of his death. He gifted items from trunks of memorabilia with his valet on barnstorming tours. He would sign them. This helped his popularity. He is as big in our hobby today as then and always will be.

Today players go through well over 100 bats, maybe 140-150. The game has changed. Between sliders, sinkers, and higher velocity, they are cracking the bats more. By the way, Joe DiMaggio used a single bat for 45 games of the streak. His record bat has not surfaced. 

David: Besides Ruth, what bats command the highest value? 

John:  Generally speaking, the earlier the bat, the more desirable it is.  This applies to vintage as well as contemporary material. The early bats are really scarce. The players didn’t become famous. They wouldn’t have saved them.

David: (A few average prices for regular season bats: George Brett: $5,000; Ken Griffey: $6,000-$12,000; Mike Trout, $5,000-$10,000, Derek Jeter: $10,000).  Given their rarity and the red hot sports market, why don’t bats’ prices rival cards’?

John:  I collected baseball cards. I had a full collection of Topps, Bowman, and Fleer from 1953-1990. I collected complete sets. Cards are universal. Many, many children collected them. They are easy to handle. There are a lot of plusses with baseball cards such as population reports. 

That’s why PSA is soon Introducing its population report for game used bats. A collector is going to be able to look up a Cobb or a Griffey and know exactly what the population is. There may be only two or three from Mantle’s rookie year. Now we can refine and give the grade of the bat, too. Say, there are two nines of a particular player.

David: Speaking of rare memorabilia, you team up with Denny Eskin to authenticate game-used fielders’ gloves.

John: Denny is the lead. I do thousands of bats and, in comparison, a handful of gloves. They are so scarce and hard to prove that they are game used.  Gloves are so esoteric. There’s the difficulty of placing it on a player’s hand.

Most players use one glove per season and have one or two as back ups in case the stitches rip.  They don’t throw them away. Two seasons later they may come out and  use the same glove again. Or a number of years later. Maybe it’s his lucky glove or he is superstitious. Once they break it in. It forms in their hand. To coin a phrase, it fits like a glove. It gets very comfortable for a player. They don’t want to lose it. That’s why game gloves are so rare.  

They are continually pulling at the rawhide. Retying them again. Unless you have a very distinctive marking on the glove it’s very difficult to authenticate. The number or name is in marker (on older ones).  What we often see is the creasing of the leather is the actual creasing of the leather on the back of the hands.

It’s also very difficult to photo match gloves. And the players get a lot of samples. Derek Jeter may have been sent a dozen DJ2 Rawlings.

David: Finally, you’re the top authenticator of game worn baseball caps. 

John:  Focus on vintage pre-war caps with names like Babe Ruth or Joe DiMaggio sewn right into the hat. These embroidered ones are very, very rare; the rarest part of a uniform and are  authentic. 

Starting in the 1960s when I was a kid, pro models were for sale in places like The Sporting News.  They were the same type of cap with the same labels as the players wore. Anyone can put a number on a cap. Without provenance, we can only attribute a cap. 

Contemporary players get boxes of caps. 

Caps are just not as popular. There are very few people who just focus on caps. We do get requests each year. After the war, you just need to be careful. There may be an uptick. 

David: What about the memorabilia such as caps you authenticate that the individual signs “my gamer.”

John:  Players tend to be liberal. They don’t know themselves. We are the collectors.  All they do is put caps on their heads. We are the guys who know a player’s  characteristics or the provenance. 

David:  A little more on your cap authentication, please. Pre-war is pretty simple because the names are embroidered in the caps. Tell me a little about caps since the 1960s. I know you look inside for the proper professional tagging, manufacturers’ date codes, and consistency of a player’s cap size. But, as you explain, provenance trumps all.

With post 1960 caps, in my opinion, it’s all about credible provenance. Tagging and the appropriate size are easily determined but they do not determine authenticity. I like to see the cap coming from a team member, clubhouse attendant or the player himself. Short of this we can only “attribute” the cap as being worn by the player.

David: Back to bats, please. I understand you’re collaborating with Collectable on a Ted Williams Triple Crown bat which will be offered on the platform. What do you think is so special about this particular piece? 

John: What is special is the ability to place the bat to one of his two Triple Crown Seasons increases the collectability of the bat. This is true of all Triple Crown winners. The Triple Crown is a category of its own for collectors. It also creates a niche of it’s own within the pop report of the player. If a player has say 40 bats in general population, of the 40 maybe 2 can be placed to a Triple Crown Season. So the Triple Crown Bat is extremely rare when a regular season bat may be common.

David: To close this interview. How bullish are you on bats in the future?

John:  I am very bullish on the bat market right now. It could double or triple. I think you’ll have a  pretty good indicator over the next 24 months.

With the value of cards rising, we will see a spillover coming into game used bats. It’s only going to continue. There will be the introduction of the PSA population report. PSA is also launching its Pinnacle Program for the creme de La creme with full documentation for bats like the perfect Cobb with letters from him. These are like Hall of Fame bats. 

Fractional ownership is going to be a springboard for new collectors. This is where the future of the hobby lies. When people can come in and own Ruth and DiMaggio that opens the door for lower priced players. They may be able to afford  Freddie Freeman. or Ronald Acuña for $3,500. [Editor’s note: Taube introduced a client to  Collectable so that he could consign a 1965-1968 Roberto Clemente game-used bat. The IPO is on July 1]. 

We haven’t mentioned Mike Trout. There are  Albert Pujols, Jeter, and Trout— the iconic layers of today and the players whom we have been watching.

It hit me that this is real memorabilia. From the time  you’re in Little League, a bat and a glove are very personal to a player like Ty Cobb with the tobacco juice. Or the pine tar for Brett. 

It’s not a piece of cardboard.

Each bat has a player’s name. Each piece is unique. I say that every time I write a letter. You really can’t rubber stamp it. No two bats are the same.

Dan: Steven, thanks for joining us as our second guest on CollectableU! For those who don’t know, you are one of the premier Negro League card collectors in the hobby and author of “Negro Leaguers and the Hall of Fame”. Let’s start from the top. How did you get started? Tell us a little about yourself and how you originally got into collecting. 

Steven: The first baseball game my father took me to when I was seven years old was Don Larsen’s perfect game. I was hooked. I spent much of my youth flipping, trading, and collecting baseball cards. I am also one of the lucky few who prevented my mother from throwing out my complete Topps set runs from 1959-1962. I still have them.

Dan: Wow, that’s one heck of an introduction to the game. Can you tell us a bit more about what you remember from that day?

Steven: I remember the catcher (Yogi Berra) jumping into the pitcher’s arms at the end of the game. I figured all games ended that way.

Dan: Let’s talk Negro Leagues. From my and Collectable’s own research, the Negro Leagues are deeply underappreciated and contain a wealth of incredible athletes, stories, and collectibles most casual baseball fans do not know about. What initially drew you to studying and collecting the Negro Leagues? 

Steven: As a student of the game, I became fascinated by the game’s outliers, players like Joe Jackson or Pete Reiser who never fulfilled their true potential either by circumstance or injury. In the early 1980s, I discovered an entire league of outliers in the Negro Leagues, players who were comparable to and often better than their counterparts in the Major Leagues. Imagine the NFL or the NBA today without African Americans and you will have a snapshot of the talent in the Negro Leagues. In post season barnstorming contests between 1920 and 1948, the Negro Leagues actually won the majority of games played against white Major League All Star units. After the National League integrated in the late 1940s, nine of the 11 MVP honors between 1949 and 1959 were awarded to former Negro Leaguers. Young Negro Leaguers, men such as Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Ernie Banks, would come to dominate the sport.  The objective evidence was there. You could easily make the argument that the Negro Leagues were truly the better league. 

 Dan: You took your interest to the next level and wrote a terrific book called Negro Leaguers and the Hall of Fame: The Case for Inducting 24 Overlooked Ballplayers. What compelled you to do this? 

Steven: I think it is important that we give Negro League players the recognition now that was unfairly kept from them during their careers.  The Hall of Fame is how we as a society recognize our most exceptional baseball players. If we keep players out who deserve to be inducted, I consider that a double injustice. Numerous Hall of Fame qualified Negro Leaguers died in poverty and lie in nameless graves. They deserve nothing less than to be recognized on the merits.

Dan: Tell us about some of the Negro League players you feel strongly deserve enshrinement in the HOF who are not currently recognized?

Steven: Bill “Money” Monroe, a second baseman in the early twentieth century, was called by John McGraw “ the greatest player, white or black” he had ever seen. From 1907-1914, he may have been the most renowned and popular player in Negro League ball. Unfortunately, his known statistics are scanty because of the early era in which he played.  

Catcher Quincy Trouppe spent the bulk of his career playing in the Caribbean and Mexico where he was better paid and more well respected. He was named to 17 seasonal All-Star games in different countries over a 23-year career and established a .311 batting average in Negro League play. His WAR (Wins Above Replacement) per 162 games is exceeded only by Josh Gibson among Negro League catchers. 

Sam Bankhead was the Negro League’s ultimate multi-position utility player, a hugely respected baller who Ted “Double Duty” Radcliffe cited as the player most emblematic of the Negro Leagues. He compiled a .311 batting average over 20+ years of Negro League play. Bankhead was elected to play in 9 East-West All Star games at five different positions, in which he hit .387. Stung by racism, he never attended another game after he retired, saying “ I cannot be a fan.” Bankhead became a garbageman in Pittsburgh and was used as the model for Troy Maxson in August Wilson’s Pulitzer Prize-winning play Fences. Sam Bankhead was shot to death in a bar fight in 1976.  

Dan: What bit of Negro Leagues insight or knowledge surprised you the most whie you were writing the book? 

Steven: I was unaware how hard it was to push the Hall of Fame into recognizing the Negro League players over the past fifty years. As I am sure you have heard, Major League Baseball has recently announced that the Negro Leagues will now be considered part of the Major Leagues and their statistics will now be official Major League statistics.  With the Negro Leagues accepted as full Major Leagues, perhaps more modern leadership of the Hall of Fame will rectify this injustice.

 Dan: You’re considered to be one of the pre-eminent collectors when it comes to the Negro Leagues, and the Negro Leagues seem to be gaining momentum within the hobby. Tell us what’s happening in the space from your perspective.

Steven: Yes, the stars of the Negro Leagues have been gaining in notoriety and popularity for years now and that trend is really only accelerating.  Once Negro League statistics are combined with those of the white Major Leagues, I anticipate that the Hall of Fame will pick up the mantle and begin reviewing Negro Leaguers on a more aggressive basis. When you mix it all together, this segment of the hobby really has a chance to boom.

 Dan: What effect do you think the recent recognition by MLB of Negro League statistics and the upcoming integration with MLB records will have on prices for Negro League collectibles? Could it potentially dilute the value of more established vintage GOATS like Ruth, Cobb, Wagner etc.?

Steven: It can’t be anything but positive.  Personally, I think it only enhances the hobby. In terms of the vintage GOATS, there are only a few Negro League players that compete at that top echelon alongside Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, and Honus Wagner.  The value of Ty Cobb or Honus Wagner collectibles was never based on which of them was better.  They were both dominant for so long in their leagues.  That there will now be a couple of Negro League players who similarly dominated their league is not going affect much.  It isn’t a fixed pie.  Magic Johnson’s allure doesn’t hurt Larry Bird’s value.  A new conversation as to whether Babe Ruth or Josh Gibson was the greater slugger is an interesting and valuable addition to the hobby. If anything, bringing fresh conversation to the established lists will do nothing but stir up more interest.

 Dan: Who would you say is the “most underrated/underappreciated” Negro Leaguer, in terms of cards and memorabilia? 

Steven: The entire Negro Leagues are under appreciated, underrated, and undervalued by our society, both then and now.  I believe that Negro League cards and memorabilia, in terms of both rarity and quality of player, are the best value in the entire trading cards and memorabilia industry. I am confident that many of the players listed in my book will one day be in the Hall of Fame. There are good values to be had. 

With that said, a few players really stand out to me as undervalued and underappreciated: Oscar Charleston (arguably the best Negro League player of all time), Spotswood Poles (maybe the fastest player in history), Chino Smith (maybe the all time AVG leader) and pitcher Dick “Cannonball” Redding. These guys, and plenty of others, definitely deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Again, listing underrated and underappreciated Negro Leaguers is a very long conversation. 

 Dan: You’re primarily a Negro League card collector. What are some of the most coveted Negro League collectibles in circulation? 

Steven: Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson are obviously the two major household names from the Negro Leagues. Paige crossed over into the Major Leagues in 1948 and his early Leaf, Topps and Bowman cards are highly sought. 

Many of the greatest Negro Leaguers, men such as Oscar Charleston and Pop Lloyd, played winter ball in Cuba in the 1920s, and there exist rare Cuban baseball cards of these men whose values have skyrocketed in the recent past. Another player from baseball’s true pantheon, Martin Dihigo, had baseball cards issued of him in Cuba, Venezuela, the Dominican Republic, Mexico and Puerto Rico from the 1920s through the 1950s.

I am also a big fan of modern autograph and memorabilia cards of old time Negro Leaguers. The major stars have all passed but many survived until recently and were available to sign modern collector issues. Satchel Paige, Cool Papa Bell, Judy Johnson, Ray Dandridge, Buck Leonard and Leon Day are Negro League Hall of Famers whose certified autographed cards are most readily available. Obviously, there will not be any more of these cards signed.

Dan: You recently had an interview published in the PSA SMR price guide regarding Josh Gibson specifically. Can you tell us a bit about what drew you to focus on him?

Steven: While his name is well known, his accomplishments are not genuinely appreciated. Aside from a reputed 900+ home runs over the course of his career, Josh Gibson’s lifetime batting average of .361, if eventually confirmed by the Elias Sports Bureau, would place him second behind Ty Cobb (lifetime BA .366) in Major League history. Gibson’s .466 batting average in the 1943 Negro National League season will also see him replace Ted Williams as Major League’s last .400 hitter. Altogether, historians claim Josh Gibson won at least nine home run titles and four batting championships. As his statistics become integrated into Major League records, Josh Gibson will debatably be recognized as best right-handed hitter in Major League history.  

 Dan: From a collecting standpoint, what makes Josh Gibson so desired and valuable? 

Steven: Many people do not know that Josh Gibson died of a brain hemorrhage when he was only 35 years old.  He was still quite good, and obviously quite young. To put this in perspective, Hank Aaron hit 245 home runs, and Tom Brady won the majority of his Super bowls (4), after the point in their careers when Josh Gibson had died. Gibson’s early death, well before the advent of the memorabilia era, creates tremendous scarcity, which drives his collectibility. 

His early death goes hand in hand with a lack of his autographs in circulation. There are only several known verified copies of his autograph in existence, compared to thousands of autographs. 

In addition, there are only two game used bats of Josh Gibson that have been located to date, one of which was chopped up by Topps for use in game used cards in 2016. The “Bat Barrel Card” created by Topps from that bat was touted by Topps as the “greatest card ever produced”. The other known game used bat of Josh Gibson was sold by Christie’s Auctions in 2016 for $319,500. 

Furthermore, there is also card scarcity. For example, only 14 PSA graded examples of Josh Gibson’s 1950-51 Puerto Rico Toleteros card (known to collectors as the “Black Wagner”) have emerged to date. On the other hand, there are approximately 60-7 known copies of the T206 Honus Wagner card, according to PSA, some which can sell for millions of dollars.  

The combination of rarity and GOAT is especially prevalent in Josh Gibson, and this relationships can exist across the Negro Leagues. 

Dan: Collectable is IPO’ing a “Negro League Basket” shortly, which contains a pretty unique Gibson card. Tell us about this card.

Steven: Yes, really unique. It’s a one-of-one 2003 SP Legendary Cuts Card containing a certified Josh Gibson autograph is regarded as the crown jewel of the finest autograph set ever produced.  Upper Deck secured mainstream media coverage when it released this card of Josh Gibson. Regarded by many as the finest autograph card set ever produced, the “1 of 1” Gibson card was the crown jewel of this release. One trade journal deemed this card one of the most significant new issues in memory, calling the 2003 private resale of the card for $12,500 “a stinking good deal” for “the only Josh Gibson certified cut autograph card on this planet.” 2003 was quite a long time ago by hobby price standards. 

 What are a few of his most iconic cards/items that you have come across or would love to find?

Steven: I uncovered and published an article about the only American issued Negro League set during its lifespan, which was issued by Harrison Studios in Hot Springs, Arkansas, where Negro League teams often went for Spring Training. The Harrison Studios Set was a sepia-colored real photo postcard set issued over a three-year period from 1930-32.  So far, eleven different cards for that set have been discovered, with others likely to exist. The set features cards of the Homestead Grays and the Pittsburgh Crawfords during their glory days, with many Hall of Famers pictured.

 Dan: When it comes to vintage cards, which nearly all Negro Leagues cards are (aside from modern auto inserts), do you have a preferred grading agency? 

Steven: Recently PSA has emerged as the clear favorite in the market.  But I consider SGC comparable for unique or rare vintage cards of the Negro Leagues.  

 Dan: What is the most prized item in your collection currently? Doesn’t have to be the most valuable, but what makes it the most prized to you?

Steven: I own the true rookie card of Josh Gibson issued in 1931 as part of the Harrison Studios set. Referred to in the hobby as the “Holy Grail” card, the Gibson card is autographed by him both on the front and back of the card. The card is the only known copy of this card or of any card featuring a solo picture of Gibson issued during his playing days. This card also represents the single Josh Gibson autographed image known to exist.

Dan: What item in your collection was the most thrilling to acquire? 

Steven: When Topps issued the only Bat Barrel Card of Josh Gibson in 2006, it garnered national press attention when it was pulled from a pack by a card collector in North Carolina. I tracked down that collector, negotiated with him over time, and purchased the card. That was fun.

Dan: How about something you have always wanted to get your hands on but just haven’t been able to locate or acquire? 

Steven: There appears to be a card of Grant “Home Run” Johnson issued by Punch Cigars in Cuba in 1910. Its very existence is steeped in legend. Johnson was arguably the greatest American ball player at the turn of the 20th century. A perennial All Star and lifetime .316 hitter, Johnson played for 26 championship teams, often serving as captain or player-manager of those teams. Four times he was deemed MVP of his league. The card is so rare it has never been pictured, although one reputable collector has assured me that he has seen the card. I regard it as the “great white whale” of Negro League cards.

 Dan: If a novice was interested in expanding their collection to include Negro League players, where would you suggest they start? What are some good resources out there that can provide a good jumping off point?

Steven: There are some really great books out there. I would suggest learning a little more about the Negro Leagues, their players, stories, and history because it is truly fascinating stuff. Robert Peterson’s Only The Ball Was White; Larry Tye’s Satchel Paige: The Life and Times of an American Legend; and Buck O’Neil’s autobiography I Was Right on Time are good launching pads.  Phillip Garry’s Negro League Baseball Collectibles Guide is the leading treatise on vintage Negro League Cards and contains a ranking of the 100 greatest Negro League cards.

 Dan: Keeping in mind that this is not investment advice and that everyone should always do their own research and due diligence before making any investments, where do you see the most opportunity for growth in the Negro Leagues segment of the hobby?

Steven: I feel the entire segment is primed for a big surge.  The supply of cards and memorabilia is so limited that even small increases in demand could generate an outsized effect on prices.  if you find cards and memorabilia of Negro League players for a fair price, buy it.  Especially if you like it, because there is a good chance that only a few, if any, other copies exist and you never know when you’ll get another chance. 

 Dan: Thank you again so much for sitting down to chat with us. As a final question, if you could give any one piece of advice to someone collecting out there, what would it be?

Steven: Make it fun. Find something that you like and means something to you.  I have always considered myself a collector and enthusiast first and an investor second.  Making money is certainly a positive, but that is not why I have dedicated so much of my time over the years towards my collection.  Collecting should generate meaning and joy to your life.